Posted by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 4/20/10 5:53pm
Msg #332593

refusing to notarize a document...

i just was wondering if anyone else has experienced a situation similar to mine. i currently work for a title company and i share an office with a client of mine whom i regularly notarize corporate assignments of mortgage for. this is purely out of courtesy, not part of my job requirements and i'm not compensated for it. one of the processors came to me with a corporate assignment of mortgage for me to notarize for a property located in TX. the document had a TX acknowledgment, i'm located in CA. i proceeded to explain that i would have to attach a CA acknowledgment and she became very upset, insisting that i must notarize the form "as is." i reiterated that the acknowledgment was incorrect and i cannot attach my seal to an incorrect acknowledgment and to that she replied "that's not my problem." since she didn't accept my offer to attach a proper acknowledgment, i refused the document and she stormed off after she told me she would take it up with my supervisor and that she was fed up with my attitude. i'm very frustrated by this experience and sincerely concerned for my position with this company because of it. it prompted me to send an email to my supervisor explaining the situation and how it concluded the way it did.
i know i did the right thing...i'm thinking if i'm terminated that a wrongful termination suit may be in order, but CA is a right to work state and i can be terminated at any time without explaination...

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/20/10 6:10pm
Msg #332597

Page 11 of your handbook states, in part:

"A notary public may complete a certificate of acknowledgment required in another state or jurisdiction of the United States on documents to be filed in that other state or jurisdiction, provided the form does not require the notary public to determine or certify that the signer holds a particular representative capacity or to make other determinations and certifications not allowed by California law."

Reply by janCA on 4/20/10 6:12pm
Msg #332598

Page 13 of the CA Handbook.
"A notary public may complete a certificate of acknowledgment required in another state or jurisdiction of the United States on documents to be filed in that other state or jurisdiction, provided the form does not require the notary public to determine or certify that the signer holds a particular representative capacity or to make other determinations and certifications not allowed by California law".

Is the document going to be filed in Texas or California?

Reply by janCA on 4/20/10 6:13pm
Msg #332600

Sorry, Linda, guess my fingers weren't..

going fast enough.

Reply by JAM/CA on 4/20/10 6:12pm
Msg #332599

I'm sorry Jessica, why couldn't you notarize it? If this document is to be recorded in Texas for a Texas property, you can use the notarial verbiage on the document. If it is a Jurat notarization, you would need to use CA compliant wording no matter where it goes.

Am I missing something here?

Reply by JAM/CA on 4/20/10 6:14pm
Msg #332601

As we all post at the same time. LOL n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/20/10 6:14pm
Msg #332602

LOL....:) n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 4/20/10 6:27pm
Msg #332608

Because the venue was TX and she is in CA (if I understood correctly) or not CA required verbiage anyway.

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 4/20/10 6:30pm
Msg #332611

not to say that the handbook is confusing...but above the paragraph indicating a notary can complete an acknowledgment for another state the following paragraph indicates

The certificate of acknowledgment must be filled completely out at the time the notary
public’s signature and seal are affixed. The certificate of acknowledgment is executed under
penalty of perjury. (Civil Code section 1189(a)(1))

the form will be filed in TX. i can't determine with 100% certainty that the acknowledgment is accurate for TX as it appears to be an old CA acknowledgment (where is states personally known and doesn't include PENALTY OF PERJURY)

it's my practice to include an acknowledgment that i'm familar with and that meets my state's requirements, primarily because the form i notarize frequently (corporate assignment of mortgage) is a lender generated form and it includes a "standard" acknowledgment, not necessarily a state-specific one.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 4/20/10 6:33pm
Msg #332613

When in doubt, I check with my attorney. He is free as we served together, so I understand if people cannot afford one. He is familiar with the notary statutes. The first time I ran into this, I did run it by him .......

Reply by JAM/CA on 4/20/10 6:40pm
Msg #332614

Try this

http://www.uslegalforms.com/acknowledgments/Texas.htm

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/20/10 6:42pm
Msg #332616

Re: Try this....Joan

I think her concern is that the "under penalty of perjury" clause is not included in the TX ack

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 4/20/10 6:45pm
Msg #332618

Re: Try this

the acknowledgment was definitely NOT worded like this...

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 4/20/10 6:54pm
Msg #332623

From the Texas website ...

http://www.sos.state.tx.us/statdoc/forms/edinfo-sample-forms.pdf

It's pretty easy to check the various state's SOS websites

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 4/20/10 7:01pm
Msg #332627

Re: From the Texas website ...

the form doesn't look like this either...

Reply by MrEd_Ca on 4/20/10 8:24pm
Msg #332647

Re: Try this...

... the CA Acknowledgment from this site appears to be wrong, maybe the Texas Acknowledgment could be wrong also? Just a thought ...

Reply by KODI/CA on 4/20/10 6:18pm
Msg #332604

"California is a right to work state and I can be terminated at any time without an explanation" is not necessarily correct. I personally have testified at labor suits where the employer was fined for a termination that was not legally justified. No I am not a lawyer, nor a union representative. In my previous career I was in automotive management and terminations in that industry are quite frequently not justified. I would definitely check with a lawyer if you do get terminated over this.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 4/20/10 6:31pm
Msg #332612

I should have also added ...

It seem like this is not an offense for which you should be terminated. Of course, that always depends on your work record. Home everything works out for you.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 4/20/10 6:28pm
Msg #332610

Another case of not being familiar with the state handbook. I suggest you read it from cover to cover now and at least every few months. The classes you take to get your commission, whether they be online or classroom teach you how to pass the test. They do not teach anywhere near all the info in the book.

Even though I think I know it from cover to cover, I still refer to it when something questionable comes up. I also keep a search able pdf on all my computers. I suggest you do the same. You can use that state's acknowledgment if it is to be filed in that state. In all cases, though, the CA jurat is to be used when a jurat is called for.

Also, California is not a "right to work" state, but all that means is that unions have the right to have a closed shop meaning you must be a union member to work there .. that's all. Union workers can still be terminated for cause. There is no special protection for making mistakes.

Reply by Robert/FL on 4/20/10 6:40pm
Msg #332615

Remind these co-workers that your notary commission is a convenience to the office, but your primary duty is to the state. You have laws to follow if you want to keep your commission.

Let them know that YOU are the boss when it comes to notarizations. No one is going to come tell me how to do MY job as a notary when they don't have the slightest clue as to the duties/responsibilities/liability of a notary.

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 4/20/10 6:44pm
Msg #332617

i felt like she was trying to bully me into notarizing the document HER WAY, instead of how i felt comfortable notarizing the document. that's her MO for everything...she just marches over to my desk and expects me to just do what she wants me to do. she's a very hostile person to work with.

Reply by Robert/FL on 4/20/10 6:46pm
Msg #332619

Fine... just tell her you are going to start charging your maximum fee, and if she can't pay the fee then I guess she won't get your services. I am not sure about Calif., but in Florida we can refuse to notarize if the client is unable to pay our fee.

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/20/10 6:53pm
Msg #332621

Jessica, did your place of employment pay for your commission?

Reply by Cari on 4/20/10 6:56pm
Msg #332624

Notarysigner, does it matter? She's the boss of her stamp... n/m

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/20/10 6:59pm
Msg #332626

Re: Notarysigner, does it matter? yes! .. n/m

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 4/20/10 6:56pm
Msg #332625

no they did not, i've been responsible for maintaining my commission.

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/20/10 7:14pm
Msg #332631

Good. I would find out if there was another notary in the office. If there wasn't, I'd be prepared to explain to my manager (the person who can sign your termination papers, not the Sup) why I felt uncomfortable doing so. That's reasonable. If there is another notary in the office, I'd want to know why she didn't go to them. It's harassment if she insisted you do it if someone else was available.. You'll be alright. How do I know? Experience.

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 4/20/10 7:18pm
Msg #332634

there is another notary in the office and she did exactly what i would have done...attach an acknowledgment specific to CA. of course the other employee can't react in the same manner that she did with me...the other notary is HER supervisor.
in all honesty, i know there were other factors to her reaction but when you work in a professional environment, you keep your personal crap at home or take a day off.

Reply by Cari on 4/20/10 6:53pm
Msg #332622

I didn't read the rest of the posts, but couldn't you have

just changed the venue or in IL the geographical jurisdiction, to reflect that it was being notarized in her state and county?

State of ______
County of ________

....not at all familiar with CA laws but you should've signed the document IMO...if permitted by your state....

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/20/10 7:14pm
Msg #332632

In this situation, the first question you ask is, "Is this acknowledgment required for Texas?"

Chances are, they'll just say yes even if it isn't. They probaby have no idea. It's not really up to you to determine if that's true or not, though.

As mentioned above, you can use it if is is meant for another state. Now, NOT just the property itself... but all of the documents. If any of those documents have anything to do with California or could be filed in California... forget it, you use current proper wording.

It's in these cases that you have your handbook with you and you be able to cite Civil and Government Codes at them. That always gets them. When you starts saying something like, "California Civil Code 1189 specifies the wording that I'm allowed to use. You're more than welcome to look it up, but as a public official I have a legal obligation to follow state law." That usually shuts them up.

Remember, it's not just certifying capacity that we're not allowed to do... but "other determinations" not allowed by law. This often eliminates a lot of out of state certificates. We're not allowed to use the "personally known to me" language anymore... so unless you can't cross that part out, then there's another reason to refuse.

Frankly, most states don't really "require" any particular wording from an out of state notary anyway.

Oh, sure... they can fire you for whatever they want. But, if you really feel that it was wrongful, you can sue them... but if you do, you beeter get an attorney that know notary law. And, well... good luck with that.

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 4/20/10 7:23pm
Msg #332637

there are numerous ways to approach the situation...if i had tons of time to pull out my handbook or check that the acknowledgment was accurate for TX, the end result may have been different. BUT, she came to my office with an "i needed this yesterday" attitude, no time to react in other way than how she wanted me to.
i think the safest bet is for me to no longer perform notary services for them. it was offered as a courtesy that is being taken advantage of.

Reply by MW/VA on 4/20/10 7:18pm
Msg #332635

An important post, Jessica. I did have a hard time

reading it. I know you're upset, but writing paragraphs helps.
I do believe there are many notaries who are EXPECTED to notarize anything that their employer gives them--no questions asked. We've heard to notaries in banks who notarize a document after the fact, not in the presence of the signer, etc.
You know your Notary law & have to comply with it. It's tough to have to make an issue of an improper request in your job, but it has to be done. IMO they can't fire you for refusing to do something that would cause you to break the law.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/20/10 7:27pm
Msg #332638

While you could lawfully complete the TX ack

(from what I have read/heard of the CA notary law) Texas doesn't mind a California Ack as far as I know. The CA ack gives the all the elements required in Texas. It's my opinion it could be done either way.

Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 4/20/10 7:36pm
Msg #332641

Re: While you could lawfully complete the TX ack

Texas, it seems, will accept anything for either an acknowledgement or a jurat, from "Sworn 4/20/10" or "Acknowledged 4/20/10" to the monstrosity that Robert presented the other day, and I have seen notarizations along those lines. I've never had one refused for recording.

The advantage of that is that you never have to worry about form in the Lone Star State. The disadvantage is when you run across a lawyer who doesn't know what he's doing, and who draws a notary certificate that meanders on forever, contains numerous unnecessary blanks to fill, and seeks to cover both jurat and acknowledgement because he has no idea of the difference and doesn't know which to choose.

Reply by Robert/FL on 4/20/10 8:02pm
Msg #332645

Re: While you could lawfully complete the TX ack

>>>... a lawyer who doesn't know what he's doing, and who draws a notary certificate that meanders on forever, contains numerous unnecessary blanks to fill, and seeks to cover both jurat and acknowledgment because he has no idea of the difference and doesn't know which to choose.<<<

The story of my life!

Reply by MW/VA on 4/20/10 8:58pm
Msg #332650

Exactly, Robert! We see it all the time. Unfortunately, it

is the attorneys that make the big bucks & we get the small change.
They're waiting in the wings to slap us with UPL. We can't even choose or advise the client of the proper choice of notarial certificate. Frustrating.

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/20/10 7:29pm
Msg #332639

5 Star Post, Robert/FL !!!

<<<<Remind these co-workers that your notary commission is a convenience to the office, but your primary duty is to the state. You have laws to follow if you want to keep your commission.
Let them know that YOU are the boss when it comes to notarizations. No one is going to come tell me how to do MY job as a notary when they don't have the slightest clue as to the duties/responsibilities/liability of a notary.>>>>

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And to add: the CA handbook says a notary *may* use another state's ack wording. There is no requirement to nor are we required to know whether the other state's ack wording is compliant with that state's SOS. So for that reason alone, I'd stick with my OWN states wording as I know what my own state's wording is supposed to say. Unless I'm getting a written request to use another state's ack wording for a doc filed outside of CA and provided the other ack wording doesn't violate CA rules, I will always use CA ack or jurat wording.

Excellent post, Robert/FL !

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/20/10 8:29pm
Msg #332648

Agreed! n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/21/10 2:32am
Msg #332664

Re: 5 Star Post, Robert/FL !!!

I *mostly* agree. As for the cert, I probably would have done the same thing. Unless I'm CERTAIN that the provided verbiage is what is "required" in a particular state, (which isn't likely to happen unless I get the document well in advance and have time to do a little research), I will default to a CA-compliant ack. As soon as I see the words "known to me to be..." as I so often do with docs from Texas, I replace the ack.

As for the paragraph quoted from Robert, I completely agree with the concept. However, given the personality type described by Jessica, I think it would be very, very difficult to successfully have that conversation - especially as worded - with such a hostile person without having it further aggravate whatever bug they have up their... well, you know what I mean... Those kinds of people are extremely hard to reason with or have a rational conversation with. Sometimes you just have to say no and move on.

Jessica, I agree with Notarysigner about reporting this to the manager and maybe, in confidence, to your HR person or dept. - if there is such a thing there. If not, find someone else at the company whom you trust to confide in (or outside the company, if necessary). Then proceed to document (preferably on page-per-day calendar, so you can prove sequence of events) any and every hostile communication or interaction with this person, in as much detail as possible. Keep it locked up somewhere, maybe with your journal.

This sounds like it could be a very real case of harassment. I'm not recommending that you file a claim ('cause those tend to backfire on the person filing), but more as a defense, should any action be taken against you. If you have any decent, informed, reasonable management at that company, it may then likely be the harasser who leaves and not you, if you have good documentation of her shenanigans. If she has treated you that way, then she likely has treated others that way, too. This can create a liability to management that they don't need.

Best of luck!

Reply by CF on 4/21/10 7:00am
Msg #332670

Question for CA notaries: what will happen if you use

the wrong worded ack or jurat? Will the document be rejected? Is the notary responsible for that? I have to think that b/c a notary is not responsible for picking a jurat or ack....how can they be responsible for the outcome of improper wording? Just curious....this CA wording seems to be a real issue. I, honestly, have no idea that is why I am asking. TIA.

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/21/10 9:32am
Msg #332679

Re: Question for CA notaries: what will happen if you use

Page 11 2010 Cal notary handbook says it all but basically,..

Key wording of an acknowledgment is “personally appeared.” An acknowledgment
cannot be affixed to a document mailed or otherwise delivered to a notary public whereby
the signer did not personally appear before the notary public, even if the signer is known by
the notary public. Also, a notary public seal and signature cannot be affixed to a document
without the correct notarial wording.

Reply by Robert/FL on 4/21/10 10:50am
Msg #332695

Although we can't decide whether a jurat or ack is

appropriate, it is absolutely the notary's repsonsibility to make sure that the certificate provided complies with the state's requirements. California's wording is very strict, so, even though the notary can not look at the document and decide whether to attach a jurat or an acknowledgment, if the document already has a jurat printed on it which is not compliant with California's laws, the notary must replace the pre-printed jurat with a California jurat. This is true in all states.

However, most states' certificate requirements are not as strict at California's. In Florida our certificates have to have certain elements, but many states don't have any requirements.

IMO the focus should be more on the notarial act and less on the exact wording. I would rather have each notarial certificate be an accurate description of what actually happened then have a perfectly-executed certificate where the notary failed to administer an oath. That is, I would rather see:

I hereby certify that John Doe personally appeared before me on April 21, 2010, and acknowledged that he signed this document voluntarily.

... because this certificate leaves nothing up to interpretation as to what exactly was said, as opposed to "The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me...", when a person not familiar with the nature of an acknowledgment would not know what that means. Likewise, IMO a certificate like:

"I hereby certify that John Doe personally appeared before me on April 21, 2010, and swore that the statements contained in this document are true and correct and he signed the document in my presence"

... is better than the standard "Sworn to and subscribed" jurat. In Florida, the above would be insufficient because we can only use the word "sworn" and not "swear", and we also have to notate the identification.

Wow, this turned into a big rant. Sorry!

Reply by OR on 4/21/10 11:57am
Msg #332715

Re: Although we can't decide whether a jurat or ack is

I think I would have taken a pass too. I think you did the right thing. It is never wrong to adhear to the laws that you know. It is you commission to protect not hers to deman you add to what ever document she wishes. Not knowing TX Notary laws isnt reason to be fired. JMO

I have replaced them before. I had one that had odd wording under the notary signature line from a funeral home that stated that the Notary was agent of such and such funeral home. I refused to sign it and replaced it. The sister of the man got so upset. She said no one else cared and signed it where she told then to signed. I told her that I was not an agent of the such and such funeral home. That I was a Commission Notary of the state of Oregon witness her brother sign and notarized that he was the person who signed his name. She ask me what she should do if the such and such funeral home would not except my attached ack. I told her that I had followed the Oregon State if it gets rejected she find and Attorney and ask him what to do next. I would never risk my commission by using the wrong ack.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/22/10 1:18am
Msg #332848

Re: Question for CA notaries: what will happen if you use

"what will happen if..."

Perhaps nothing. OR if that document ends up in court someday for who knows what reason, a smart attorney may decide to attempt to have the document invalidated because it was not properly notarized. The whole case could get thrown out regardless of the validity of the complaint. I have no personal experience to go on about this, but I did talk with an attorney/part time judge who said he used to very effectively use this approach all the time when he was a litigator.

I wouldn't want to risk being involved in a situation like that!

Bottom line, the laws of our individual states are our laws and, I don't know about the rest of you, but in California when you become a Notary Public, you take an oath to comply with the law. Period. That means regardless of whether or not we think there might be a better way, we comply with what the laws require -- unless or until it is changed. So for me, it just is what it is. I don't see it as a real issue. (The people receiving the document may not agree with me on that... )