Posted by GOLDGIRL/CA on 8/4/10 7:06pm
Msg #347610

Cutting fees/cutting costs

The recent posts by npross about how he/she makes up to $10K a month doing $75-$85 signings got me wondering exactly how he did this. He obvious cuts alot of corners - probably all the corners - and maybe it's time in these days of ever decreasing notary fees being offered for us to think outside the box. Maybe the old rules no longer applyand we3 need to make new rules for our business. We're always being told we have to "adapt." So here's my first idea: the borrowers always come to you - mobile is no longer part of your vocabulary. The benefits of this are obvious. Now, this may come as a surprise to the lo-balling SS/TC, not to mention the borrower, but that's just the way it is. You find a polite way of saying that the fee structure under which you are operating does not permit notary travel to your door anymore. Sorry. Then, when/if the borrower calls their LO/Realtor, who then calls you, howling, you politely explain that the lender has chosen to deal with a TC which has chosen to deal with a SS that pays a "below market" notary fee which simply does not permit travel. (This is sort of like buying a Coach class airline ticket, but "expecting" First Class service. Not going to happen!) Oh, and the borrower is responsible for dropping docs. Anyway, we'd probably get fired eventually - but what have you lost? Not that I'm serious about this - but I am serious about adapting to the current market place. Doing things the old ways may not cut it anymore. I'm being paid the same as when I started 7 years ago - but the trend is clearly lower fees being offered. What other business is making less than 7 years ago while paying higher costs for printing/ink/paper/gas/auto insurance/etc. (There probably are some but I can't think of any right off. And I wouldn't want to be a part of them.)

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/4/10 7:40pm
Msg #347612

I like that idea

I don't get that many lowballers calling me, but I just might do that the next time one does. I'll state my fee, and when they counter back with something lower I'll just say "sure, I can do it for that fee, but travel wouldn't be included, so the borrower will have to come to me". And the lower the fee they offer, the longer the list of things that won't be included will get.

It would definitely be a fun change from the old "I'll have to get it approved and call you back" routine we're used to.

Reply by MonicaFL on 8/4/10 7:51pm
Msg #347615

I would add

And I will be available between such and such a time. - no sooner, no later! And no faxbacks or a gazillion RTC, HUDs or mortgages to sign! I think I will do this the next time I get a lowball offer.

Reply by James Dawson on 8/4/10 8:08pm
Msg #347616

...Or you can also say, the reason why you were late to the signing was because you had to catch the bus because you couldn't afford to buy gas.

How about, you hand printed some of the Docs because you ran out of ink.

Or you didn't go out because you forgot which Low-Baller hired you!

Reply by jba/fl on 8/4/10 8:46pm
Msg #347620

"How about, you hand printed some of the Docs because you ran out of ink."

ROFLMAO!

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 8/5/10 3:05pm
Msg #347801

LOL n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/4/10 8:24pm
Msg #347617

<<<The recent posts by npross about how he/she makes up to $10K a month doing $75-$85 signings got me wondering......>>>

Got me to wonder why he/she thought anybody would believe that BS posting.

I do agree that Notaries should adapt to the changing SA atmosphere and here's what a $60 fee would get: TC/SS overnights or sends edocs to borrower and borrower prints them on his/her equipment (hope they have a laser printer). Borrowers come to me, I don't travel to them - we can meet at Starbucks near my home. TC/SS includes a list within edoc file of which papers need notarizing and borrower flags those. I only notarize those papers. Borrower is responsible for signing the rest of the package on his/her own time, not mine. Borrower is responsible for fax backs and shipping the completed package.

So in essence, I just show up at Starbucks near me to meet with borrowers, notarize those papers needing it, then leave. Oh, and since it's just $60....borrowers can pay me at the table, in CASH! They will get a recepit. That would work for me. Then I can do $60 signings all day, every day.

Reply by James Dawson on 8/4/10 8:29pm
Msg #347618

I think you're on to something....paying at the table would n/m

Reply by James Dawson on 8/4/10 8:30pm
Msg #347619

Sorry wrong button...but

paying at the table instead of waiting 30 - 45 days definitely would cause me to adapt somewhat.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 8/4/10 8:50pm
Msg #347621

Meet me at Starbucks!

I can see you've thought this through LKT/CA! I lilke all your ideas. Only probem is if we got paid at the table, how could the TC/SS cheat us out of our payment? That's taking all the fun out of chasing our fees! But seriously folks, the LSA business has evolved over the years into what we do today - print two sets of docs, dress professionally, guide petrified/uninformed/lied-to borrowers through a loan signing so the Realtor/TC/lender can get paid thousands and thousands, do our notary stuff, drop docs off for next day delivery no matter if next-day delivery has already been picked up, check in on the SS Web-site to complete, etc. etc. In the "old days" when out-of-office loan signings first started, much has been written about how $200-$250 was stardard fee. And I've been told by old-timers that they got to the borrower when they got there and the borrower better be there or else! They flew from one job to the other - after picking up docs at the TC. It wasn't until later that someone figured out to overnight docs and then to having the notary print docs. This now has evolved into e-signings, but in my opinion the printing requirements are almost the same as for a regular signing. Now we're saddled with faxbacks, can't use close-by drop boxes, hounded by baby-sitting calls and gawd forbid you don't meet every whim of the borrower, including exactly when and where they want to sign or the whining begins. And the more the SS wants, it appears the less they pay. Who says we have to continue doing things the same way each time? If they are willing to pay your fee, then they get the works with whipped cream and a cherry on top. If they pay only $75-$85 and you want to stay in this business while making a sensible profit, something has to give. You know that npross has a system going that no way resembles what we would consider a standard work ethic. But that work ethic costs us money and time (and time is money) and if Stewart Title or How Low Can We Go SS is not willing to pay for it, then .... well, we need to come up with creative ways to adapt. I like JD's idea to just take the bus!

Reply by Les_CO on 8/4/10 9:21pm
Msg #347624

It makes me wonder why anyone would post such crap in the first place. Such obvious lies sure aren’t going to impress anyone here with even a modicum of experience.
I’m getting tired of saying this but Fees have NOT lowered. The borrower pays today closing costs that are equal to or slightly elevated from what they were a few years ago.
The fees that attorneys charge for witness closings in ‘attorney states’ or elsewhere, have not gone down.
It’s just that now that the NNA has churned out thousands of …? NSA’s? No, let’s just say notaries, and some Title Companies have seen that there are some low paying SS out there that have gotten away with paying unprofessional, and uninformed notaries low fees, that they are trying it too in order to make a few extra bucks.
The ONLY reason anyone offers low fees is because some people take them.
If the lenders truly cared about the costs (they don’t because they don’t pay them) they would send the loan package to the borrower well in advance of the closing date with instructions to take it to a notary of the borrower’s choice, have the appropriate documents notarized, pay the notary, sign the remainder and send the package back. It ain’t going to happen… for many reasons, at least not in a standard re-fi. (I know that some loan modifications have been done in just this way)The lenders WANT good, knowledgeable, professional, Notary Signing Agents handling their closings, and to liaison with their customers. Not some clown, that stumbles in the door, mumbling “Here sign these, don’t ask me any questions, ’cause I don’t know the answers, and hurry up cause I have to drop off some business cards at the nearest check cashing store.” JMO

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/5/10 1:28am
Msg #347661

Gee, sounds a lot like general notary work here in CA! ;>) n/m

Reply by MichiganAl on 8/4/10 10:20pm
Msg #347633

Boy do I like this. I might just have to try this the next time a low-ball company calls. And I don't mean just as a way to be a smart alec or to send them a message. They call around, can't find anyone to accept their cheap fee, they're running out of time, so they go to the borrower and ask them if they would be willing to come out to us. I can see how this could end up being the last option for some of these companies. The SS is happy because they get the appointment covered and they get to pay their cheap fee, we're happy because we're not spending an hour of our time driving for a low fee, and IF the borrower is agreeable to it, then they're happy too. Oh yeah, I like this idea.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 8/5/10 12:42am
Msg #347654

Your attitude is right on, MichiganAl.

This is not about oneupmanship or teaching anybody a lesson. It's about providing a level of service commensurate with the fee paid. It's about our adapting to a changing market in a way that keeps us in the game and our head above water. We just need to figure out how to make it work ... becasue change is not easy.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 8/5/10 6:20am
Msg #347674

Re: Your attitude is right on, MichiganAl.

I suggested this twice in June and got poo-pooed by other notaries both times. Msg #339385 Msg #340866

To me, it sounds like the only solution when dealing with $60-$75 fees.

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 8/5/10 4:39am
Msg #347672

Yeah, but now I have an additional cost

Who's going to pay for my cleaning lady? LOL

Reply by Susan Fischer on 8/4/10 11:42pm
Msg #347644

You ask ~the~ question: What other business is making

less than 7 years ago, while expenses continue to rise? All *small* businesses, all Middle Class, and Service Workers.

Meanwhile, the Corporations that ultimately hire us continue to make record profits.

It's what they do, make a profit.

My profit is shrinking, regardless of the 'sales' on supplies from Mega-Stores, and the 'uninitiated' are 're-inventing the wheel' of accepting pitiful fees.

$10K/Mo? Avg $80 fees? Avg $2326/Wk?. $332/Day more or less? 6 Days/Wk? Pretty much every month, week, and day?

Bullpucky.

Reply by garland/CA on 8/5/10 12:18am
Msg #347649

White glove service without compensation

I have thought about this for awhile. White glove service is: driving to the borrowers' home (how often have I been rushing from one side of town to the next without even stopping to eat while the borrower sits comfortably in their home awaiting my arrival), printing a copy of docs for the borrower, getting docs shipped out from a reliable location same day, presenting the docs in an understandable way, helping borrowers to get wiring instructions and a myriad of other things they need from title, getting the brokers' disclosures signed for them... these are services that deserved the fees of old. The new lower fees do not match the level of service expected.

Reply by npross on 8/5/10 1:04am
Msg #347658

Goldgirl/CA- Seems to me that you do have tons of time to sit...and sit...and wonder.
I don't cut corners, and yes I have a wife who takes ONLY the signings I am not able to, since she has her own clients. And I don't include her numbers on my count.
I don't cut corners in any way.
I appreciate the PM's I received. Seems like this is one sided, and if you are the one who does not agree with the majority you are hated by others. This site is only for a "few" that have nothing else to do, but sit around and wait for $125 signings to come through the door.
BTW: I drive a Toyota Corolla and not a SUV, so my gas is not expensive.
Everyone is so afraid do "disclose" their fees: Well-- Here's is, I charge $60-$75 for overnight package, $80-$150 on e-docs and if I have to pick up/drop off docs I add $10-$20 more.
So here, new Signing Agents- you can either charge more or less- I'm not afraid of anyone taking over my clients- I've done this since 2003 and am still in business and will be in business till the day I retire.
GoldGirl-Good Luck, but please don't wonder for too long, life is short, get out there and make some money, pay off your mortgage and your debt and then travel or do what you LOVE with your loved ones.

But anyways, I have no time to respond to your posts. Its pointless to me, my well being and my success. my wife is laughing at me that I am sitting here trying to prove anything to anyone.
If anyone wants to know ideas about marketing to new clients, PM.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 8/5/10 1:30am
Msg #347662

<<But anyways, I have no time to respond to your posts.<<

I can tell.

Reply by janCA on 8/5/10 9:45am
Msg #347695

Great info for your competition!!

Reply by janCA on 8/5/10 9:46am
Msg #347696

Post below was suppose to be for npross. n/m

Reply by npross on 8/5/10 1:14am
Msg #347659

principal on fees

Someone, who PM me made a good point. I totally respect EVERYONE who runs their business on "principal" (What ever that may be for each of you)
BUT, I've got 3 kids who will need college funds, and I'd like to pay my mortgage off in 8 years instead of 30. SO, seriously- I respect all of you for running your business and sticking to your fees, but I'd like to get on with my life, and retire early. Which is the Reason I work all the time.
So, please be respectful to all and their opinions, even if you don't agree with them. People are afraid to post on here. And Trust me, there are others that will have a record filled month in August and September.
Its Refi Mania- Rates are at a Record low!

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 8/5/10 1:40am
Msg #347664

Re: principal on fees

In any case, I don't know why you're jumping all over me. I posted yesterday asking for your secrets to success and you never responded. I never called your posts "crap" or worse, like many other notaries. After thinking about your recent posts, I merely said today it seems to me you must be "cutting corners" and then I went on to suggest all of us think about similar ways to do things differently to meet the changing marketplace. I don't believe I ever said anything derogatory about you. I don't understand your rampage against me - but don't bother to respond at this point because I wouldn't want to take up any more of your time or to have your wife laugh at you anymore or to worry about my jean purchases!

Reply by npross on 8/5/10 2:05am
Msg #347668

fax-backs?

I never do fax-backs. I tell my client, that if I miss anything, I will waive my fee: simple, to the point, no one has issues with that and I don't ever do fax backs, unless docs are needed asap for funding and then i do charge a small fee.
But why fax backs???, never understood why anyone does that.

Also, chasing your fee? at 30 days, if i don't get paid, my wife calls and simply states that we will contact the borrower and TC within 5 business days if check is not received. Always works with new clients, and with my old clients, I know that sometimes I'll get paid in 2 weeks and sometimes in 45 days- I'm OK with those terms and don't bother them till 60 days.

Reply by npross on 8/5/10 2:13am
Msg #347669

signings at home?

My wife does a few here and there. One of her clients is "OK" with her offering this service. She basically gives a borrower a "choice" you come to my house for $50 or I go to yours and charge $100-$125. This is for clients who want to sign after hours and on the weekends and are not able to make it to the TC office but want to save some money as well.
(can't say it will work with a SS, but works with TC)
Never any complaints from any borrowers and some people would prefer to do that and save $50-$75.
Its all about giving choices and letting the consumer decide.

Reply by janCA on 8/5/10 9:48am
Msg #347698

Re: signings at home?

Okay, these posts are all jimmy-jacked. Sorry!

Reply by Les_CO on 8/5/10 10:07am
Msg #347719

Re: signings at home?

Yesterday this clown was advocating doing closings for $75. Now he says he gets $170 for e-docs, if he drops off the package. AND his wife charges the borrower an extra $50 (apparently not on the HUD) to come to their home to sign the documents.
I’d say he’s smoking a bit too much of what he’s selling to make that 10 thousand bucks a month.

Reply by garland/CA on 8/5/10 10:21am
Msg #347726

so it looks like you are charging $100 - !25

and the $75 - $80 was for reduced services (going to the borrower's home, dropping off packages), etc.

Reply by garland/CA on 8/5/10 10:22am
Msg #347727

meant $100 - $125 n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 8/5/10 11:54am
Msg #347746

Re: principal on fees

I totally respect your bragging about your success. You have obviously set up a system that is very profitable to you. I can also hear that you've got goals & the motivation to reach those financial goals, all commendable.
That said, I wouldn't assume that the rest of us are schmucks. There are a several notaries that I know of from this forum that are making 6 figures incomes. More power to them.
There are others that are tailoring this business to their situation--family, retirement, health issues, etc. Each person has a different set of goals & maybe a different definition of success. IMO a person doesn't need to make 6 figures in order to be considered successful. It's an individual issue.
Again, congrats on doing so well in this business.

Reply by jfs/IL on 8/5/10 9:48am
Msg #347697

Re: Cutting fees/cutting costs..Do the MATH

To make $10000 per month @ $85.00 you would have to close 117+ closings per month!!

$10,000 divided by $85.00

Reply by garland/CA on 8/5/10 10:06am
Msg #347718

averaging 2.5 hrs/signing, that's 292.5 hrs/month

I had a number of months last year that were over 200 plus hours and found it to be very taxing and hard on the health. I thought I was making "a lot of money" until I paid my taxes and realized quite a few of the signings I was doing for "free". And I had no life.
This year I am working smarter and it is better for me.

Also still think most loans from start to finish take 2.5 to 3 hours of time. Cutting travel would be one of the main ways to cut that time. That means having borrower come to you, or to a location near you. Most borrowers are told "a notary will come to your home" and that is what they expect, as well as the SS/TC that contracts with you. On those very busy EOM days it would be great if we could do that but I have found it does not go over well with the borrower, SS or TC. So it is hard to get in the volume without running yourself ragged.

Reply by jnew on 8/5/10 10:08am
Msg #347720

Everything should always be negotiable. Let them quote a price, then tell them what you are willing to work for. Always have a cost breakdown handy to justify your price. The problem is that a lot of you out there will not negotiate and will take what you are given. You hurt others and yourself.

Reply by Notary01 on 9/1/10 2:10pm
Msg #351213

It is very simple; if a company is offering you less than you feel you should make then turn down the business.

There is a new twist in the business now that has come about since the mortgage crisis and that is title companies doing volume business. For them to get the volume business they are only making $150 to $200 profit per file but they can throw out hundreds of closings per month and they make it up in 'volume'. Now the volume companies are only paying $125 to $150 and yes to those of you who will want to pick a part every line of what someone says; the notary fee is before their $175 profit on the deal. The notary fee is considered a cost.

The volume companies have to use a signing company because they don't have the man power to hire their notaries direct so the SS has to pay low fees. They have no choice.

So if you don't want to work for a lower price you certainly don't have to. You are a self employed individual who can pick and chose the work you want.

There are still the title companies who are doing business and making a profit as before but they are being hurt financially by the volume deals. There are still SS companies who are doing business with those title companies and they are still paying the fees they paid in the past but they too are seeing a dramatic decrease in their volume of work.

Stewart Title is one of many volume title companies. It is the trend of the future and I wish this business would go back to the way it used to be but as more and more nationwide title companies start doing the 'volume' work then it reduces the work for others. Believe me the title companies have no desire to go the way of the 'volume' but for some it is either go under or go 'volume'.

Then the notaries can turn down the work from the volume SS companies or they can get on-board. It is your choice. But, as things continue the way they are going do you want to turn down 20 closings a month at $90? Again, your choice. You are self employed and can make your own decisions based on your personal wants and needs.

For those of us who have been in this business for a long time we have seen so many changes. Title companies used to make $1,000 to $1,500 on a closing. SS used to make $350 on a closing but times change and now many of those companies are gone and many are making changes to stay in business.

You also still have the title companies who only do local work for local lenders and they don't need to hire a notary unless a spouse is out of town on business.

It seems that the changes are only coming from the Big Nationwide Lenders but that is a lot of our work. Change hurts and is hard to get used to.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 9/27/10 1:57pm
Msg #354347

It is also a new trend to PAY for QUALITY & SSERVICE

It is not my job to increase the new middle man fees, a self created business opportunity, that these TC have "created" so that they can cut our fees while requesting that we do more for less. Get real!

You want us to "get on board"? Go ahead, but might I suggest that while you are on that train you take the time to say "Hi" to all the Mom & Pop's that that thought they were "forced" to use that strategy with Wal-mart when they came to town. Oh wait, you can't, they aren't in business at all because they used that business model.

The TC's want to work with SA's, GREAT! Call us Directly. We will quote a fair price and, at least for the TC's that I work with, they offer a fair price upfront.

Sorry, Notary01, but the kind of "Change hurts and is hard to get used to" that you are suggesting that NA's start accepting would leave us with nothing but ¢hange.


I know what I bring to the table is well worth what I am charging. That said, I do have a different fee schedule for companies that pay Net 15 verses Net 30 and even a different one for Net 45. If a company says they pay Net 60, I tell them to find another sucker because my fees for those start at $300/per (refi only more for others) for overnight docs alone (and MUST be very LOCAL). I'm not a bank, so don't disrespect me or my business by using my payment (and others) as a method of cashflow for your company without even the thought of paying me extra for the use of my money.

Loans fund after 3-Day expiration for refis and 24-48 hours for loans such as investment properties. By law the money has to be paid out once funding is complete. Net 15 is a reasonable time period. Net 30 is acceptable (with the fee charged for those terms). Anything longer than that, well ...you get the picture.

Simply put, it is a respect issue. You (the TC or SS) show me the same level of respect that I am going to not only show you, but that you expect. A great working relationship counts for a great deal in times of "crunches" or when things are tight and the TC/SS really do need an SA to "help them out".

Let's get real for a moment. If a TC/SS has been insulting me and my business for months by lowering the amount they offer by 50% from what they have offered for years for the same service AND want to now hold my payment for at least an additional 15 days, but may actually hold it for a total of 45 THEN cut the check for my payment to be mailed, Just how much would YOU think I am going to be willing to bend to "help YOU out" when YOU are "in a bind"? ...

In case it is not clear, the answer will be my fee is:
$FULL PRICE + RUSH CHARGE + TRAVEL FEE + if a late closing LATE NIGHT CHARGE + HOLIDAY/WEEKEND CHARGE if either apply + FULL FAX BACK CHARGES FOR ANY FAX BACKS + Payment Terms are NET 15 with late charges to apply for late payments.

May sound harsh, but why not? If the TC/SS doesn't respect me do they think I should automatically show them more respect than they had been showing me? NO! At that point, they are the same as if they called me for the very first time after telling me that they want me to work for free while they continue to make their profits, if not even more. Oh wait, that IS basically what they were doing for the past several months in my example.

Mutual Respect always makes things better.