Posted by ikando on 8/2/10 8:28am
Msg #347270

I want to be fair to the borrower

I did a closing last Monday in which the middle initial of the wife was NOT her middle initial. I was told by the husband, who did the negotiations, that he had repeatedly told them that although the wrong middle initial was on previous documents, that they should make the change to correct it.

Still the documents had the wrong middle initial. I suggested that she cross out each instance and put the correct initial with appropriate notation. We went through the entire packet--Title and Loan docs--doing that anywhere we saw it.

The last part of the package was the application, which had NO Middle Initial at all.

So on Friday I get a call to go back to the borrowers because I did not complete an AKA on the DOT and Note. At no time was I given any instructions to do that on the original signing.

When I get the docs to be resigned, there are additional docs to those mentioned, including the same AKA document to which she had added her correct name w/middle initial. Also included were instructions that I must bear the cost of overnighting the docs back due to MY error.

When I called the SS, I was told that Title required this change.

So, two questions. Although I don't consider this my error, I will travel the 20 miles to have those docs resigned so the borrower can complete the transaction. But when is it my responsibility to pay for the return of the docs? Especially when I had no instructions about the potential error otherwise.

And secondly (and more importantly), on the AKA affidavit, it says her wrong middle initial appeared before me. Am I correct that I should cross out the wrong initial and put the real one? Should I initial that change and have her also initial?

Any help is appreciated.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/2/10 8:54am
Msg #347271

"And secondly (and more importantly), on the AKA affidavit, it says her wrong middle initial appeared before me. Am I correct that I should cross out the wrong initial and put the real one? Should I initial that change and have her also initial?"

Within your certificate? Yes - amend your certificate to reflect the person who appeared before you (providing her ID supports that)

As for the rest...well, did you call from the table about the initial problem? You said you suggested she cross out the incorrect initial and correct it throughout the package - did you clear this with title/hiring party? Without specific instruction I'm not sure I'd have proceeded like that. I understand she claims she's not known by that name, but somewhere along the way she may have been known by her name with that middle initial, resulting in title vesting as it did, and signers just forgot (a possible scenario which has happened several times to me).

Now, on the other hand, since multiple calls had been made by the husband about this mistake prior to closing, I'm not sure I'd bear the brunt of the cost to correct someone else's error. Are they paying you to go back? Perhaps they consider it your error because you took the initiative to correct the initial in the docs without authorization. Either way - you deserve an explanation as to why they think you should pay for this.

MHO

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/2/10 8:55am
Msg #347272

Your description is a little unclear, so I'm forced to make a few assumptions - if I assume wrong, I apologize...

It sounds probable from what you write that the wife is holding title with that wrong initial. Regardless, it was your first mistake in not calling whomever hired you IMMED., to get their directives. Second mistake was in following a borrower's directive. FWIW, the 1003 often doesn't line up with the rest of the docs.

By not calling to get instructions on how to proceed - you pretty much lose any/all debate in the "who's wrong" arena. The only area you have a say in is the notarial cert, and of course you have the control always in matters that are illegal, goes without saying.

My opinion is that you should have this corrected precisely as directed by the client; that your cert should only state the signer's legal name; that you should initial any change you make to any cert and no, the signers do not initial inside your notarial cert.

Most importantly - and this might sound kind of harsh, but I think you SHOULD consider that this is your error, and use it as a lesson learned. Never take the advice of anyone except the client - the client is the one who hired you, not the borrower, and never make these kinds of changes of your own accord.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/2/10 8:58am
Msg #347273

forgot the last part ...

It would be in your business's best interests to do this as a courtesy, and not even ask for a fee.

Again, my entire opinion is based on that crucial point - you didn't call and ask right then/there, what should be done. That's where you lost the whole rest of the debate.

Reply by LynnNC on 8/2/10 1:20pm
Msg #347296

From the following sentence from the original post, it is my interpretation that the problem was not that the name under the signature line was corrected to reflect the initial on her ID, but that an AKA reflecting the correction was not on the DOT and Note:

“So on Friday I get a call to go back to the borrowers because I did not complete an AKA on the DOT and Note. At no time was I given any instructions to do that on the original signing.”

How can you notarize a signature of Jane C. Doe when the name as on the ID and in the notarial certificate is Jane E. Doe? The name on the signature line must match the name in the notarial certificate.

I never have borrowers sign documents with an incorrect initial, other than with an AKA in the signature.

It is not always possible to contact the hiring entity. In my experience of over 5 years of closing loans, I have never had an instance when correcting an initial on docs and reflecting it on an AKA was a problem.

Reply by James Dawson on 8/2/10 9:08am
Msg #347274

Should have called hiring party for instructions. That would take you out of the loop. IMO

Reply by ikando on 8/2/10 9:14am
Msg #347275

I bow to the wisdom of this group. Yes, I did err in not contacting the hiring party, so I guess I'll eat this one.

Thanks for the quick response. Now I need to get the borrower to respond to my calls to set an appointment.

Reply by Alz on 8/2/10 11:24pm
Msg #347380

We have all made mistakes and

fallen short in this business(experience & newbie). Learn from your mistake by not repeating it; glean something from this experience that will increase your bottom-line.

Reply by Lee/AR on 8/2/10 9:16am
Msg #347276

While I agree with previous posters, if hiring entity had been called, it's not been my experience that they remember to add their verbal instructions "Oh, and add that name to the A/K/A Aff."

Reply by lindetteh_PA on 8/2/10 10:36am
Msg #347285

while I aggree with some of the post I strongly disaggree that this your error. What you did is what most TC and SS instruct you to do when there is a typographical error (ie. wrong initial) this sounds like they want her to sign using the wrong inital and say she is AKA with the correct intial. If I were you I'd call the borrower to see if she was willing to sign that way because I personally would not. Seems like TC is trying to get around doing a correction deed. They would have to pay me to go back.

Reply by desktopfull on 8/2/10 11:29am
Msg #347289

As others pointed out, when she made the decision to make the changes without approval of hiring entity, she made the error. It wasn't her decision to make regardless of what the borrower wanted her to do with the papers. I've been in several situations like this and I always call and inform the hiring entity. They either approve making the change at the table and adding the name to the aka sheet or tell me to leave and they redraw the papers with the correct name and quit claim deed to correct name on title. I get paid for reprinting the docs and a 2nd trip. Unfortunately, this was a costly mistake on her part.

Reply by LynnNC on 8/2/10 1:59pm
Msg #347300

Desk - what would you do if you can't reach hiring entity?

In the past, I have had borrower correct spelling under signature line, initial, and sign their signature to match correction. In over 5 years I have never had a problem doing it that way.

How could you notarize a signature that is not correct and doesn't match ID?

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/2/10 2:24pm
Msg #347301

The problems ...

...are numerous. IF someone is on title with a misspelled or wrong name, you can't simply 'correct & initial' and end up with a recordable mtg/DOT - additionally, you might end up with a lender who won't accept hand-marked docs. You can't simply ask a borrower how they hold title, most lay-people wouldn't have a clue. If this isn't enough of a problem - taking it solely upon yourself opens the door for the UPL Monster.

If the error is truly just a typo on the loan docs - how are you going to determine that? I could venture into the various means there might be of determining, but I'm just not willing to venture into the deeper depths of things on forums anymore. As they say - a little bit of information can make a person more dangerous.

So, there are at least two potential situations here, with two separate potential corrections - and many of those pesky 'unintended consequences'.

I want to add a comment about "In over 5 years I have never had a problem ...." This is an assumption that many people make about their work, but the lack of feedback is HIGH in our line of work. It's the unfortunate truth that MANY (if not MOST) errors are (a-hem) taken care of and you may never hear about it because it's just much faster & easier for the title agent or lender to take care of it (either by the book or off in the margins ...). Often the only thing that will tip you off is if you stop hearing from a particular client, and even then you might just get an arbitrary "just haven't had business to send you" because it's easier/faster than saying "you messed up."

Reply by LynnNC on 8/2/10 2:50pm
Msg #347304

Renee - what would you do...

...if you couldn't reach the hiring entity?

If the borrower signs with the incorrect middle initial, you couldn't notarize her signature because the name and sig would not match her ID.

Reply by desktopfull on 8/2/10 3:02pm
Msg #347306

Re: Desk - what would you do if you can't reach hiring entity?

I stop the closing and leave. I'm not going to break the law. If Id says "Jane C. Doe" and the papers say "Jane A. Doe" I can't notarize the signature as the being properly identified person on the papers. The Id must match the docs, unless someone in authority gives the go ahead to alter the documents. Sorry, no can do, I'm not a mortgage broker, lender, underwriter or attorney.

Reply by desktopfull on 8/2/10 3:08pm
Msg #347308

Re: Desk - what would you do if you can't reach hiring entity?

I also advise the borrower's to contact their LO to get the problem resolved before leaving.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/2/10 3:26pm
Msg #347311

Re: Desk - what would you do if you can't reach hiring entity?

OP was unclear if this person ever had that middle initial....

In FL, if they can be known by that middle name/initial, and there's a chance they took title like that (which is probably the case), the closing would not have to be adjourned because we have the latitude to notarize "who represented to me that she took title as..." or "who represented to me that she was formerly known as - I would not correct throughout the package - I'd just have them sign as stated and then notarize name on ID.

http://www.flgov.com/pdfs/ref_manual41-68.pdf

Reply by desktopfull on 8/2/10 3:59pm
Msg #347315

Re: Desk - what would you do if you can't reach hiring entity?

Linda, I'm going by the OP's statement: "I did a closing last Monday in which the middle initial of the wife was NOT her middle initial. I was told by the husband, who did the negotiations, that he had repeatedly told them that although the wrong middle initial was on previous documents, that they should make the change to correct it. Still the documents had the wrong middle initial. "

Here is what I interpreted from OP. Borrower admitted that name was used in error and no one caught it earlier, original docs were recorded, this isn't a "formerly known as" situation. Until the error on the previous docs, borrower had never used the name with the wrong middle initial. The borrower's state that the middle initial is wrong, Id shows the middle initial for correct middle name is wrong, borrower requested that the error be corrected, it wasn't. Deed was recorded with the wrong name and needs to be corrected with Quit Claim Deed. Hiring entity has to approve any corrections as far as I'm concerned under these circumstances. JMHO

Reply by ikando on 8/2/10 3:41pm
Msg #347312

I am going back to the borrower on my dime, but I did get them to pay for the overnight package.

I've since found out that this is a second refi. The first one, Title did correct the middle initial, but for some reason, this refi title company decided to go back to the original incorrect initial.

Husband is very frustrated. And yes, I think there should be something changed by whatever means to correct this ongoing error. I'm sure it will have some impact on their credit scores at some point, too.

Reply by Les_CO on 8/2/10 4:20pm
Msg #347319

You’re lucky Title was nice enough to pick the delivery fee. Also lucky it wasn’t a Provident loan, or you may have been looking at a $300 redraw fee. It’s not your fault if the lender, or title screwed up, but it’s not your responsibility to correct their errors, unless so instructed. Sometimes trying to be ‘helpful’ can come back and bite you.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/3/10 5:43am
Msg #347389

Sure this is going to be TMI, but FWIW...

Wise move to do this for your client, IMO nobody is perfect and *stuff* happens - how easily your client/you come to terms with a problem can go a long way.

Again, I'm making some assumptions based on what you're saying - 2nd refi, first one "title did correct" and "for some reason, this title co went back to the incorrect initial"; this says to ME that she DID take title with an incorrect initial, that it never WAS corrected (regardless of what borrower was told or is thinking, and again, lay-people rarely understand these things), current docs were prepared according to what is on public record (as they must be) - and that to me is so obvious.

First clue as to what is on public record is what is on title docs. Just a CLUE, nothing more/less, but a significant one. Make note for the future - any discrepancy between lender & title docs warrants a phone call (& a secret side-bet that title docs are the correct ones).

As Linda mentioned - when I need to notarize a mtg (which needs to record!) where a person is vested with such a name error, I discuss with title and prefer the "Who Took Title As" (WTTA) verbiage, rather than A/K/A or F/K/A (unless that is truly the case). Using WTTA is the only way you can take a 'false' statement (wrong name) and turn it into a TRUE statement (Jane B. Doe WTTA Jane C. Doe) "Jane C. Doe" then becomes not a part of a name, but a 'capacity' of sorts. I can of course only ID "Jane B. Doe" and that's the name I certify in my notarial cert.

I'll use A/K/A when it's actually true ("Jane B. Doe, A/K/A Jane Doe") and F/K/A when it's actually true - both assuming I can determine as true. NOTHING goes in my cert, ever, unless I can stand on it.

There is only ONE way to correct public record - and that is to record a correction. He could refi 47 times and this will NOT go away until they have a correction deed recorded.

Not sure how/why this would impact their credit scores, and sure do hope you didn't express to him that they might? I suppose there's a slight/unlikely risk that something could transfer over from the person who legitimately owns the 'wrong' name - but given that SSN wouldn't match, nor would any of the other personal info, I think that's doubtful.

Lastly - when doing a purchase, THIS IS WHERE MOST OF THIS STUFF STARTS! Always have the buyer verify how he's vested on the Deed, and cut this stuff off at the onset.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/3/10 4:24pm
Msg #347455

Great post, Renee!! This is the answer to listen to!

As I was reading this thread, I was wondering if anyone was going to mention that you cannot simply correct an issue like vesting being recorded incorrectly just by changing what is on a new set of docs. It's not that simple. But like Renee said, the borrowers don't get that. If I saw that, I'd probably be thinking "redraw".


"Lastly - when doing a purchase, THIS IS WHERE MOST OF THIS STUFF STARTS! Always have the buyer verify how he's vested on the Deed, and cut this stuff off at the onset."

Ahhhhh, if only....!!!