Posted by Baragona/MO on 8/27/10 1:56am
Msg #350648
Should I accept this?
A TC contacted me today to let me know that a TIL that was signed at closing was not dated by all borrowers. Now, I asked to see the document in question to verify that it was not signed correctly.I did not receive the document, but I was sent an email saying the document was attached (when it was not.)
Anyway, I had the 'team lead' of the closing department of said title company contact me today to let me know that I had made an error on this loan. Now, it should be stated that the loan was signed by one borrower and two sons who were on title and not borrowers. Both sons showed up more than 30 minutes late to the signing and I set the docs that they needed to sign aside for when they showed up.
Well, the team lead stated that I made the error and needed to go out to the borrower (and sons) and get another TIL and RTC signed and dated. On top of that, not only would I not be paid for the new trip out to the borrower, but I would not be paid for the closing at all! Basically, I needed to meet the borrower (and sons) to get another TIL and RTC signed even though I've been told I will not be paid at all. This is on the the busiest day of the month!
Needless to say, I was a good boy and declined extra closings (of which there were many!) so I could meet the borrower and sons to have two docs resigned as well as call an after-hours number to let them know that said docs were signed. I will not reveal the TC or SS at this time, because I feel that they were holding the prospect of further business over my head when stating that I would not be paid at all for this closing.
What I feel is wrong is making me feel guilty about making a mistake, especially when I do not have proof of the mistake and I am being told that I will not receive payment at all during an extremely busy and stressful day. I performed 2 other closings for this company today and felt extremely uneasy during the final closing, as I received the call about the previous signing while I was printing docs and preparing. It should be stated that this closing was extremely delicate (a purchase with issues) and I did not need additional stress on.
I did what was requested. However, I feel really crappy about how I was treated. Should I accept the way I was treated? The day was highly stressful, and because of the added travel and stress at the end of the day, I ended up not being able to make Fed Ex or UPS for any of my deliveries tonight. Thus, the possibility of more clients giving me a reason to stiff me on fees! I am extremely unhappy with how today turned out, despite how busy and 'in demand' I was....
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/27/10 3:46am
Msg #350649
So they claim you made a mistake... but wouldn't provide proof of said mistake and said as a result you would not get paid at all? And despite that they still want you to fix this supposed mistake...
Personally? I would have told them where they could stick it.
Though first I would have told them that I'd fix the mistake as soon as they provided proof... otherwise, forget it.
And I certainly wouldn't go out and fix a mistake if they refused to pay me for any of it. I can can totally see going out to fix a mistake at my expense.... but I'd certainly expect to be paid as agreed.
I suppose it depends on the agreement you had with the hiring entity...did they have a clause that said any mistakes would result in non-payment? I've never seen that on an agreement. I've seen plenty that state mistakes must be corrected at the notary's expense, and even threats of deductions... but no outright forfeiture of the entire fee.
And I certainly wouldn't go "fix it" if I wasn't getting paid anything, especially without proof. That's when I would have told them to stick it.
In all of the confirmations/terms that I send out, I have a paragraph that addresses mistakes:
"If it is determined that the contractor made an error or omission, the contractor shall be provided proof of the mistake by fax or email within 72 hours of receipt of documents. Upon confirmation, the contractor shall correct the mistake or omission with no additional fees charged. If proof of mistake is not received within those 72 hours, all parties agree that the contractor has fulfilled her duties and shall be paid in full, as agreed. Contractor reserves the right to retain secure copies of documents of completed work until payment for services is rendered."
| Reply by Glenn Strickler on 8/27/10 10:47am
Msg #350681
Need to see proof .....
then I will cheerfully fix the error on my dime. Otherwise, no.
I was in a title company one time where one of the employees spilled lunch on the docs. "We'll just call the notary and tell him he forgot to stamp the document."
| Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 8/27/10 10:54am
Msg #350682
That probably happens more than we know. n/m
| Reply by Glenn Strickler on 8/27/10 12:26pm
Msg #350691
Re: That probably happens more than we know.
I posted before I read the string and your post below, but I think you hit the nail on the head. The errors I have made consist of rushing myself too much and missing some obscure document deep in the package that needs a notarization. I know people have perhaps missed the DOT, but I find it difficult that anyone that has more than just a few loans completed would miss a major document like the DOT. It's among the first docs I present. And the funny thing is, I have had more than one company tell me I missed it and when I ask for proof, it's "Oh, we found your page, never mind" or some other lame response.
"Blame the notary" is the simplest thing to do when someone at the tc makes an error, spills on the docs, forgets to add a doc etc and so many notaries will try to correct the problem without even asking for proof for fear of never being hired by that company again.
| Reply by CopperheadVA on 8/27/10 5:12am
Msg #350650
If this happened to me I would definitely want to see the doc in question, because I check my docs three or four times before they are sent back to TC. I check during the closing as each page is signed, when the closing is finished I check again once more before I leave. I check a third time before I send a package back, and if I have time I will give a quick fourth check before sealing it in the package. With that said, I would be very skeptical if a company said that I had missed a signature. I'm with you - I would want to see proof. There's no reason they can't fax or scan and email it to you.
I do feel that when you have signers that come in afterward, sometimes things can inexplicably get missed. I guess it's because your normal signing routine is disrupted and docs get shuffled aside when they normally would not be.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/27/10 5:16am
Msg #350651
Justin - with your background (I peeked!) you know, even the best of us are still only human and mistakes happen. Your client knows this, too. The other thing both of you know is that EOM can be enough to make a person snap - I wonder if the stress of the day influenced the whole conversation, from BOTH sides. Since errors on both the TIL & the RTC would easily prevent a loan from funding, that team lead may have been transferring the heat they got dealt, onto you. IMO it's not fair of them to withhold payment, UNLESS this is spelled out in their confirmations or policy. If it's NOT spelled out, I would then have to question if it's even legal to withhold payment.
I applaud you for taking care of it immediately, despite the EOM stress & despite the lack of evidence. Nobody could ask more of you than that - you will never be perfect, nor will they, so it's all in how we handle our mistakes. On that, you're the winner. =)
Now ...that said ...you lose major points for missing shipping on anything signed prior to shipping cut-off. Again, with your background you KNOW that's crucial (and a purchase? Oh no!). No excuses - find the nearest drop-box for every closing and drop it immediately after signing. Not trying to beat you up while you're down, but can't applaud you on one issue without noting the other one.
I rarely disagree with Marian, but on this point I hugely disagree - the suggestion to keep copies of all signed docs is IMO wrong on a couple counts, and I question the legality of it despite a disclaimer. You can't retain the right to have something that you never had a right to in the first place - the docs are the property of the lender & TC, not ours.
Additionally - in order to get those copies, you have to take the docs back home & scan them - how often would THAT prevent those docs from same-day shipping? Same-day shipping is crucial in this industry. This is just a whole lot of extra work, delay, driving & questionable legality, for what purpose?
Can't remember anyone ever trying to scam me on an error - if I'd gone through all the trouble of scanning/keeping copies and making extra trips to ship ...well, what's the point? In 5 years, I can remember 4 errors (that's all I was ever aware of, anyway - no doubt there's been some I never was told about). That would be a whole LOT of unnecessary extra work and definitely a whole lot of pkgs that would've missed shipping cut-off that day.
| Reply by MW/VA on 8/27/10 9:05am
Msg #350671
I think Renee has covered it very well. I agree with her
about keeping copies of docs. IMO it is a major violation of GLBA.
BTW, if I'm asked to correct a mistake I expect to be provided with a copy of the doc in question.
Especially when it comes to a RTC. Also, I correct those rare mistakes (we all make them) at my expense (2nd trip, shipping, etc.) Otherwise, there is no excuse for withholding payment. You completed the signing & deserve to be paid.
| Reply by Baragona/MO on 8/27/10 11:55am
Msg #350688
Thanks, Renee. I appreciate the feedback. I don't feel like you beat me up while I was down. I realize that I made a major mistake by missing the pickup cutoff for my docs. I can only blame myself and nobody else. Really, no excuse as I should have made sure that the docs that signed earlier in the day were dropped off earlier in the day. The purchase may not be as big of an issue, though, as buyer funds were wired, faxbacks sent and I took the security instrument and warranty deed to the recorder's office after closing to be recorded. Thus, I may not be as beat up on that one.
Regardless, that was yesterday and I can't dwell on what occurred. It is now over and done with and I will discuss this matter with them next week, after the whole EOM madness has passed.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/28/10 6:21am
Msg #350791
Wise move & great attitude, Justin ...
I had a processor 'go off' on me Thurs evening - completely caused by her own stress, which I just won't ever share again - working this job is a cake walk compared to working on the inside. She kept apologizing over and over, I said "not necessary, forget about it, you have my empathy!"
My bet is things will look a lot different to everyone, come Sept. 1st. =)
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/27/10 12:48pm
Msg #350693
Well...
Here's the thing... keeping copies of documents just to keep them is none of my business. I need to have a reason... and my reason is that it is proof that I did the job they asked me to do.
I will tell them that I reserve the right to do so... as it is proof of my work. If I am going to have payment issues, how am I going to prove I completed the job?
I have a portable scanner... so going home to do it isn't really an issue for me.
Plus, if I do keep copies, I maintain them on a secure drive that is double password protected and requires my thumbprint, too. I take borrower privacy seriously, as I do any person for whom I notarize documents.
The key to this is that I "reserve the right" to keep copies... I may retain a copy as proof of my work until payment is received, and then it's gone.
I've spoken to an attorney about doing this and he told me that I had every right to do this as long as I was telling them that I was doing it as proof of work completed.
Do I like doing it? NO WAY!! But, what other recourse do we have? As independent contractors, we need to cover ourselves and provide proof of our work if we're questioned on not doing it properly. It's not hold the documents hostage... it's keep a file copy for our records as proof of work completed. As long as we're maintaining better privacy standards than they are, where's the problem?
And let's face it... most of these companies violate privacy laws all day long by emailing insecure PDF files through insecure email. And yes.... most of the PDF files they send are completely insecure... to the point that I could edit them before printing if I wanted to. I wouldn't.... but I could because I have the knowledge and software to do it. I actually am happy when I see a company that sends me a secured PDF file. But it rarely happens.
| Reply by JulieD/KS on 8/27/10 7:33am
Msg #350659
I'd have told them where to stick it! Even if I had failed to get the TIL dated, all that I needed to do was go rectify my mistake at no extra charge. If they told me I wouldn't be paid for the original signing, I'd have not even gone to fix the mistake.
Furthermore, as I've learned over the years, these companies make lots of mistakes and want to try to pin the error on the notary so that they don't have to pay extra fees to fix their own mistakes. They needed to ship out the original TIL to you to go have it fixed.
What a slimy company. Sorry you had to deal with that!
| Reply by Linda Juenger on 8/27/10 7:53am
Msg #350661
This is what the 3 day RTC period is for also. To correct or get signed any other things that are needed. Of course it is for the borrower to "think about it" an cancel if they choose, but they use those 3 days to rectify anything else. First, make them prove it and 2nd get it corrected if you made the mistake. The mistake should have nothing to do with the original closing especially if it funds. You should be paid. Correcting your mistake is your dime though. We are not perfect. We are going to make a mistake here and there. God knows title companies and signing companies make their fair share. Can't count the times names are spelled wrong on docs etc etc etc. Stick to your guns and make them prove it and make them pay you for the original closing.
| Reply by Mary Ellen Elmore on 8/27/10 8:31am
Msg #350664
I have never had an SS or TC say I had made a mistake w/o providing proof of such.
| Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 8/27/10 8:40am
Msg #350666
Oftentimes the " mistake" is that someone at the TC spilled coffee on the docs. This is especially likely to be true if they don't send you the mistake so you can see it.
One time the TC called me and told me the sig/notarization page was missing from the DOT. I told them that was not possible. The signing table was totally bare when we sat down. At the concluision of the signing, I gathered up all the papers on the tablle into the shipping envelope. l sealed it in front of the borrower and immediately dropped it in the FedEx box. Hmmm...I wonder what could have happended to it? I never heard another word.
| Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 8/27/10 8:41am
Msg #350667
1. If you have a long-standing relationship with a title company, as apparently you do in this case, that should involve mutual trust. Yes, you're within your rights to demand proof of any mistake. But why would you jeopardize a beneficial relationship by demanding proof if the company has not previously in any way indicated it would be inclined to take advantage of you? Take their word for it, and fix the error.
2. I have a policy that if any material error of mine delays funding, there is no cost for the original signing and no cost for any remedial measures. I want my customers to know that my expectations of my performance are even higher than their expectations, and that's one way I convey that message. That being said, the TC got its closing done, and, once the error was corrected, should have been prepared to pay for that closing.
| Reply by James Dawson on 8/27/10 9:11am
Msg #350675
If I had been told to go out and fix it and I wouldn't be paid I would have politely told the Ok then, find another Notary, who will do it free!
| Reply by OR on 8/27/10 10:05am
Msg #350678
I would also want to see the error. I can't believe that they will not pay you of the work you did. I have never ever had someone ever tell me that. I never ever would leave the borrower hanging on any loan. They are my neighbors. I would fix the loan then never work for that company (person) again.
My question is this: Is this a company policy or the company employee refusing to pay you.
I would call someone higher up or just another employee and try to get thing straightened out for everyone including your self before refusing to fix the error.
| Reply by James Dawson on 8/27/10 1:01pm
Msg #350697
Yesterday I got called to fix two errors (missing notary signatures) and when I got the Docs, I opened them up and they weren't even mine! LOL
| Reply by OR on 8/27/10 1:18pm
Msg #350700
James that has happened to me too. I hope you got paid for both.
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