Posted by Robin L. May on 8/10/10 3:34pm
Msg #348393
VIPclose
does anyone have any information on vipclose. I did a closing for dave@vipclose in may. He has skipped out on me. I sent a collection letter to the title co who responded that they are not responsible in any way. ADVICE would be appreciated. I can argue with the title co and bombard them with faxes but I am concerned they may blacklist me? Opinions welcome.
| Reply by LynnNC on 8/10/10 4:20pm
Msg #348396
The title company is not responsible...
for payment to you, and you should not have sent them an invoice... VIPClose hired you. If you bug the title company for payment, you can be sure they will blacklist you.
| Reply by James Dawson on 8/10/10 4:28pm
Msg #348397
Lynn is technically correct but, sometimes revenge is sweet The SS has probably blackballed you and the Title company usually uses a middleman but not always the same one. See Msg #326882
| Reply by MW/VA on 8/10/10 7:20pm
Msg #348416
Your collection letter should not have been sent to the tc. While notaries sometimes contact the tc to put pressure on the ss for payment, that doesn't always work. The tc didn't contract for your services and has no obligation to pay you. IMO it is not a good idea to pursue that avenue.
Any collection letters can only go to vipclose. Also, do not contact the borrowers in an attempt to collect. Whether we like it or not, we sometimes get burned in this business. It is why we rely on Signing Central to try to check out a company before we get stuck. I don't see VIPClose listed in Signing Central. If you do a search, using the orange search button, they have been discussed before.
| Reply by James Dawson on 8/10/10 7:45pm
Msg #348421
I have often seen/read this about not contacting the TC. What I have not seen is what is correct and what is not correct, only suggestions.
One poster liken the situation to a relationship between a general contractor (TC) and sub-contractor (SS) and I'm in agreement with the argument she presented. The TC is the owner of the "product" not the SS. If someone would so kindly point out where it says you cannot/should not contact the TC if you're not paid (government code, regulation, for example), I would be willing to show it to all the people who advised me to contact the TC for payment.
In my court case the judge did not have a problem with what I did once I followed through with the demand letter first.
| Reply by James Dawson on 8/10/10 8:00pm
Msg #348424
that's my advice Robin, I don't want to highjack your thread
I'm through with it. I 'm sure you'll make the right decision for yourself.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 8/10/10 8:19pm
Msg #348425
Disagree with anyone who says...
....the TC is not responsible. YES, THEY ARE!!! They'd better know they can trust their middleman because if the middleman skips with the money - they are responsible. I was the one who used the analogy of the Homeowner, General Contractor, and Subcontractor.
Homeowner = TC
General Contractor = SS
Subcontractor = Notary Public/Signing Agent
Homeowner hires and pays GC for remodel. GC hires and is "supposed" to pay subcontractors (plumber, electrician, painter). Instead, GC runs off to Jamaica with all the monies. Subcontractors file a mechanics lien and go after....who? the homeowner who BENEFITTED from subcontractors work. And LEGALLY, the subs CAN collect from the homeowner who will have to go after the GC for a refund (if they can find him).
Did GC benefit from subcontractors or work? Aside from a finder's fee? NO! The homeowner is the true benefactor.....homeowner enjoys the improvement and gains from the property's value rising from the improvements.
If it were ME, you're darn tootin' I'm going after the TC. THEY ultimately benefit from the Notary's services and THEY are ultimately responsible. If the TC's defense is, "well, we paid the SS already so it's not our problem. Ummmm, we'll see what a judge and the state insurance commissioner has to say about them turning a blind eye to deadbeat middlemen. It behooves them to know their middlemen and not do business with criminal interprises.
| Reply by Les_CO on 8/10/10 8:48pm
Msg #348432
Re: Disagree with anyone who says...
Another way to look at it is that every time a NSA closes a loan, and that loan funds, the Title Company makes around $1000, maybe a tad less, or perhaps double that, depending on the amount of the loan. But any way you slice it they are BENEITIFING from your work. But if they (title) didn’t hire you, you have little legal recourse. Now if this happens consistently, with their knowledge (Or if the SS is a de facto subsidiary of the Title Company) then you may be correct in your hypothesis. JMO
| Reply by desktopfull on 8/10/10 9:15pm
Msg #348435
Re: Disagree with anyone who says...
In some cases the TC actually owns the SS, such as: Richmond Title owns Flex Services. TC's that continue to use company's such as SOX definitely know that they don't pay their notaries but continue to send their closings to them knowing the notary will be ripped off.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/11/10 6:21am
Msg #348464
Les - that's an excellent point ...
...about the SS's that are in fact subsidiaries - hand-in-hand relatives, if you will, need to be treated as the family that they are. Thing is - we generally know when these games begin, and they're soon avoidable.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/11/10 6:18am
Msg #348463
IMO that's apples to oranges
IMHO, this analogy is apples to oranges. The basis for a mechanic's lien is the resulting benefit of the service, labor and/or supplies to the property. We provide a service, but not to a tangible piece of property.
Our world centers on contract law, specifically business-to-business contract law. If we're going to analogize, then it would be more apropos to say:
You, a small business, hire a tax accountant to do your taxes. You pay him.
Your tax accountant contracts with another small business, who provides people under their own contract, to do data-entry.
Whether or not you are aware, the sub-contractor did not pay the person who actually performed the data-entry.
How appropriate is it for that data-entry person to attempt to collect the debt from you? You received the benefit - your taxes were done. Perhaps the tax accountant has been doing your taxes for years, and the job is always completed and he's cheap - should you be held responsible for his own bad debts & practices? What precautions would you impose on the tax accountant to ensure he pays HIS contract workers? Perhaps you'd like to be made aware - but beyond that, I don't think you'd be reaching for the checkbook either.
This is the risk to the NSA in contracting with SS's - they are not licensed/bonded as such, nor regulated. On the other hand, WE are not licensed as SA's, nor bonded as SA's, nor regulated as SA's. (Being a notary is only part of the whole). WE present certain risks & impositions to the Title Agents, lenders, etc. We carry less insurance, we are often a headache, contracting directly requires far more time than contracting with a SS.
Ultimately, I would prefer direct contract work, as I think most of us would. In return, and to do my best to prevent things that CAUSE title agents to use an SS, I try to act like the business owner that I am, including my debt collection procedures - which I do have, but almost never need to use.
1. I am a small business, and being a B2B means there is some inherent financial risk. That is true in any business, and I acknowledge that risk.
2. I chose my clients carefully, because I am extending them 'credit' - particularly SS's. If there's doubt, they will get the benefit of doubt ONCE. THIS is the most crucial part of running a business.
3. I read all the forums - if other's are being stiffed, I'm not special - I assume I will be to, and I don't set myself up for that.
4. I charge a professional fee, and I deliver exemplary service.
3. I send everyone an invoice upon service.
4. If the invoice isn't paid in either the time frame I specify (30 days), or the time frame the client has established (some do pay at 45), I make a POLITE & friendly reminder call. My approach is the way you'd treat a friend, if they inadvertently failed to pay you back money you loaned them - but I make a point to ask when the check will be sent. 99 times out of 100, that works - but rarely do I need to make those calls, can't remember the last time I did.
5. Couple of thousand-ish contracted/invoiced jobs later, I've been 'had' twice - in 5 years. Both were TC's that went bk, lost one job each. I seriously doubt any other small business (hair salons, grocery stores, whatever) can match that ratio.
6. IF I ever get stiffed by a SS, I would make a friendly 'fyi' phone call to the Settlement Agent - but I would never expect or indicate that they should pay me. As for those SS's that are notorious for non-payment, I simply don't play with them in the first place.
If you spend a day reading about who's zooming who, you'll see a clear pattern. SS's that pay cheap are at the top of that graph, and my 'theory' that fees are correlated to being paid seems to be more than just a theory.
| Reply by SheilaSJCA on 8/11/10 4:47pm
Msg #348522
Renee has it right! n/m
| Reply by LKT/CA on 8/11/10 6:40pm
Msg #348530
Excellent post, Renee....but
I think your tax analogy is different from the HO/GC/SC and the TC/SS/NP-SA analogy for the following reasons: The tax accountant isn't just a "finder" like the SS is. The SS exists ONLY to find Notaries.
The tax accountant offers a commodity, moreso than finding a data entry firm. He/she offers their knowledge of the tax laws and how they apply to an individual's situation, experience, expertise, education, ADVICE and guidance. They are not simply a middleman like the SS. The data entry firm needs data to enter, which is created by the TA. If TA outsources the data entry portion of their business rather than directly hiring data entry personnel, they are still responsible. Can the data entry firm sue the tax client if the tax accountant doesn't pay them? I'd say NO.
The tax client benefits from the commodity offered by the TA. The data entry personnel created nothing, they simply took information created by the TA and transfered it from hard copy to computer. Of course they should be paid for this but can they go after the tax client? I'd say NO because they didn't depend on info from the tax client but what was created by the TA. Likewise, the NP/SA depends on the info created by the TC, not the SS.
The NP/SA is a necessity...not an option and not a luxury in the loan signing process......the TC can hire NPs/SAs independent of the SS - some choose not to. It's the risk THEY take when they contract with middlemen (deadbeats) who offer nothing beyond simply finding a Notary.
NPs do offer "tangible evidence" of services rendered - the acknowledgment/jurat that has our signature and seal bearing our state appointed commission number, plus our journal entries (for those states requiring a journal).
From the OP's post, I was addressing the fact that I believe the TC to be *ultimately* responsible. By all means, we should attempt to collect from the hiring party but if those attempts are an exercise in futility, I am of the opinion that the NP/SA has a duty to hold the TC responsible. We depended on what THEY generated in order to complete our assignment.
JMHO :-D
I totally agree with the rest of your post, the six points are excellent guidelines and I especially like the last paragraph - cheap pay is correlated to pay timeframe (i.e. 60/90/120+ days). I haven't been a NP/SA long (Sept. will be three years) but I've only been stiffed once (within the first four months of being a NP/SA) and I too charge a professional fee, work with only 5 star companies and won't even take the calls of declared lowballers/deadbeats.
| Reply by Cari on 8/11/10 8:46am
Msg #348478
agree with Lisa and James on this one... n/m
| Reply by Tish/CA on 8/11/10 2:48pm
Msg #348517
Re: agree with Lisa and James on this one...
Me too. A SS who burns, ripps-off, cheats, steals, shorts payment +/or hangs on to a SA's payment for months on end is acting in an unethical behavior and the Title company who hired them deserves to know. I've only had to report a SS once and big surprise, there were others that had also complained and I was informed they were removed from their list of vendors. This seems like a no-brainer to me.
| Reply by Cari on 8/11/10 8:47am
Msg #348479
someone please link on SC..I can't... n/m
| Reply by SheilaSJCA on 8/11/10 11:39pm
Msg #348571
I tried to link, but doesn't even show up on the list for me n/m
| Reply by Gerry Grummons on 8/11/10 8:59am
Msg #348482
If I remember correctly, on the signing instructions, there was a statement to not contact lender or TC nor to include any marketing materials in return package. I followed instructions to the letter and it still took a year for payment. It was a two trip signing, lender errors and signed on second trip, but I only got paid for 1 trip. It was a nice drive though!!
| Reply by ritenotary on 9/20/10 10:43am
Msg #353151
They owe me a ton of money and they don't pay. Write this one off.
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