Posted by KC Jones on 2/11/10 10:27pm
Msg #322505

CA journal entries per NNA

Anyone read the recent NNA piece regarding CA SOS new requirement of having a seperate journal signature for EACH notarial act?? I love my Notary Rotary Journal - where I can have one journal signature & thumb print and check the boxes which apply. Anyone know if this is change is true or am I misreading? See link below.

http://www.nationalnotary.org/bulletin/newsNotary.cfm?newsid=2435&newscat=38

The Secretary’s clarification reads: “Government Code Section 8206 requires that the Notary Public’s journal include all the information for ‘each official act.’ Therefore, each act would include the date, time, type of each official act, character of the instrument, signature, type of identification, fee, and thumbprint (if applicable) on a separate line for each act.”

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 2/11/10 11:12pm
Msg #322512

Well, that's why you get paid the big bucks in CA! n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/11/10 11:29pm
Msg #322513

The articles says, "...according to a Notary statute clarification issued by the Secretary of State."

Does anyone know exactly when this clarification was issued? Why it isn't on the SoS's website?
Their reference to the "clarification" is really vague...

...though I, personally, have always disliked the diagonal line and ditto mark treatment myself. I've been using multiple entries for a while now, but I know it's common practice elsewhere, and even taught by many instructors as being okay.

I'd just like to see where they got this "clarification" or whether it's just a lawyer's opinion.

Reply by Harry [NR] on 2/11/10 11:29pm
Msg #322514

The Modern Journal was designed to support either approach. This has been covered extensively several times before. If you'd like to use a single entry for every notarized document in, say, a loan package, you're more than welcome to do so. We'd be happy to sell you 6x as many journals.

In terms of the law, nowhere in Section 8206 does it state how a journal should be formatted nor does it address the "one line/one entry" question. Rather, it states what should be recorded:

8206(a)(2). The journal shall be in addition to and apart from any copies of notarized documents that may be in the possession of the notary public and shall include all of the following:

(A) Date, time, and type of each official act.
(B) Character of every instrument sworn to, affirmed, acknowledged, or proved before the notary.
(C) The signature of each person whose signature is being notarized.
...

In our experience, when asked directly about the matter, most knowledgeable people at the Secretary of State's office have simply restated the statute, suggesting it is not their business to interpret the law. The only thing I've seen that's approached an interpretation was addressed in a recent vendor meeting. Check out the Q&A from the minutes (first question, page 4):

Notary Public Education Vendors - October 23, 2009 Meeting Notes

In our opinion, the Secretary of State should ask for a formal clarification with respect to single line v. multi-line from a proper authority. Maybe the AG's office? If a legal authority is willing to make the determination for them, and supposing they dictate single line usage, then at least they'd be the ones looking like wasteful, impractical fools.

Still and then, the point remains that the Modern Journal could be used either way. I'd encourage you to call their office and ask for a formal, written opinion on how to handle something like a loan signing if you are concerned. See if they're willing to put it on their web site. If nothing else, that would formally address a long-standing question, in addition to the periodic fear-mongering that keeps rearing its head.

Harry
Notary Rotary

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/12/10 2:53am
Msg #322533

Thanks for posting that, Harry. I wish they would post that for all of us rather than in just the Vendor's notes.

It says:

"Government Code section 8206 requires that the notary public's journal include all the
information for "each official act." Therefore, each act would include the date, time, type of
each official act, character of the instrument, signature, type of identification, fee, and
thumbprint (if applicable) on a separate line for each act."


So it seems they are interpreting to mean one line per act... and no diagonal lines or dittos. (I agree about the lines and dittos). But Harry... you're rgith, within the law itself, there doesn't appear to be anything concrete. But, if the SOS is saying one-line-per... that's what I'm going with.

I'm just concerned that this isn't something that they're posting on their website for all the notaries to see.

There haven't been any important changes since last year... and this was done, what, in October? I understand budget cuts... but it's kind of silly that we still don't have a newsletter or handbook for 2010 yet. Though, I know it's not unusual to be this late.

Reply by John_NorCal on 2/11/10 11:59pm
Msg #322515

As if you could put stock in anything the NNA says. n/m

Reply by John_NorCal on 2/11/10 11:59pm
Msg #322516

As if you could put stock in anything the NNA says. n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/12/10 12:15am
Msg #322517

Agreed!

I think something Harry said may be more to the point: "We'd be happy to sell you 6x as many journals."

I wouldn't be surprised if that's behind the NNA "warning", as well. At least Harry is being up front about it. As we know, they are constantly looking for new revenue sources. I've never bought any journals from the NNA, but I'd bet that they are more expensive than Harry's MoJo - which is my favorite!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/12/10 2:30am
Msg #322528

Same here...

I really don't understand this article they put out... it's not at all helpful, nor does it cite anything helpful.

I've never purchased an NNA journal either... but I've seen them, and they suck.

Reply by janCA on 2/12/10 8:47am
Msg #322546

To date, I am on my 16th journal...

Just about ready to start my 17th. This since 2001.

I have always done a "1 line item" for my entries. That's how I was taught and I do interpret the law that way. I'm not quite sure how one goes about entering all the information from say 10 notarizations into 1 line item, especially if the document is not listed and you have to write it out. My cursive tends to be on the "larger" size ; and then if there is any additional information needed for that one notarization, how do you separate that information?

If you do have a request to make a certified copy of that line item for one notarization, how do you go about doing that without copying all the notarizations you have recorded on that one line?

We all have our own way of keeping our journal and whatever works for one might not work for another. Different strokes for different folks.

I love the MoJo and always order two at a time.

Reply by rengel/CA on 2/12/10 10:48am
Msg #322572

Re: To date, I am on my 16th journal...

I was going to make the same point Jan, when you are asked for a certified copy of a single line item, and the signature is on a different line, how are you going to prove that the signer signed that line?

What if one comes back from a signing and sees that they missed a notarization on one doc. It would be very easy to notarize it, and then just stretch the diagonal line to include that entry - and the signer is none the wiser.

I am in the school of thought of one line per each notarized doc.

My .02

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 2/12/10 10:45am
Msg #322571

However one interprets the law doesn't matter.

It only matters how the SOS interprets the law!

Reply by janCA on 2/12/10 10:59am
Msg #322573

CA SOS can just be a joke.

I doubt whether most of the notary personnel is even a notary themselves. They're response is usually to refer to the handbook or they'll read from the handbook. Duh, I can read, what does this law actually mean? Then it's, seek legal counsel. I don't call or consult with them anymore. NR is a much better reference than our state's SOS office.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/12/10 11:06am
Msg #322574

"Consult legal counsel"

I got that response from our SOS too - told them it's not my job to incur legal expenses to clarify a notary rule their office should be aware of and tending to...I asked that they refer my question to THEIR legal counsel and have them contact me...

Never heard a word.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 2/12/10 11:08am
Msg #322576

Re: "Consult legal counsel"

I am sure it is that way in all 50 states. However, if they are out for blood, it's only their interpretation that matters.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/12/10 11:08am
Msg #322575

Re: CA SOS can just be a joke.

So, true! And with the layoffs and forced retirements, the ones who might actually know anything aren't really there anymore.

And just try finding a lawyer who actually KNOWS where all of the CA notary laws are located, much less how to interpret them.

Reply by janCA on 2/12/10 11:21am
Msg #322578

Wow, their not they're. I know better. sorry. n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/12/10 4:42pm
Msg #322601

Big, Huge, Monstrous, Collosal MISTAKE!!

<<<I love my Notary Rotary Journal - where I can have one journal signature & thumb print and check the boxes which apply.>>>

You will regret that type of bookkeeping, someday. Journals are CHEAP, they hold 1,000 entries. It's always, always, always best to record each notarial act separately, particularly when you are notarizing signatures on duplicate documents. Last year, I was hired by an attorney to notarize her client's signature on 19 indentifical jurats for a lawsuit. I completed 19 separate entries, got 19 signatures and 19 fingerprints. I invoiced the attorney's office and was paid within ten days. Suppose I completed one entry and made a note stating there were 19 identical jurats? Suppose this lawyer didn't pay me? Yes, lawyers can be unethical/crooked just like anyone else. She could have claimed I only completed one jurat and made up the notation of 19 jurats to get more money. With only one actual notarial entry, it would be her word against mine. But with 19 separate entries, 19 separate signatures and 19 separate thumbprints, my proof would be concrete.

Let me repeat an earlier statement: Journals are cheap - $20 and hold 1,000 line entries. Always complete separate line entries for each notarial act.

Journals are cheap, they are cheap, they are CHEAP!