Posted by EHarp/MO on 2/4/10 9:34am
Msg #321230

E-Sining, everybody is doing it?

I have had a signing service approach me about doing an e-signing. I have heard quite a bit about them so I accepted the first assignment several weeks ago. I learned the program in one evening and spent hours in the closing. E-notarizations are not recognized by the state and I refused to witness the documents that had been left out of the printed package. I had to print four documents and go back to the client the next day and pick up 3 missing signatures at my expense.

However, I had to go round with the staff about the documents that were left out of the printed package first. At one point they wanted my password to help me. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the security was a tamper proof seal established by the Notary Public’s password. I requested that my profile be removed from the Fiserv system.

The signing service approached me to do other work and requested a sign up package be completed. I did not do it. Then they called me to do another e-signing this week. I was asked if I had done one and if I had a lap top and air card. Then she said oh, here you are in our system. I reluctantly accepted the assignment.

I wanted to check the signing room for any documents that may have been left out of the printed package before the appointment. That way I would not get tied up in the interactive program and have to go back out to the client again. I did find that at least one Affidavit had been left out. Again, the signing service staff said that they could not help me if I did not give them my password. This turned in to a dispute. The signing was reassigned with in an hour of the appointment time.

If the state does not recognize an e-notarization and I do not have an electronic seal, then it is not a valid notarization. My perception is that if I did witness the document electronically then it could be construed as a notarization. I would then be liable for the transaction. This service insisted that a lot of notaries in my state are doing them. There was a strong essence of intimidation. The Secretary of State’s office does not recognize an e-notarization. I would appreciate some feed back about this from any one who has some background in this area.

PS: Fiserv cannot remove me from the system. The signing service has to do it.

Reply by Cari on 2/4/10 9:45am
Msg #321234

if you knew that your state doesn't allow e-notorizations

then why did you accept two closings, and what was the point with your post?

Sorry, but from what I'm reading, which is sort of difficult to comprehend, your look like you are just asking to be charged with illegal notary activities for your state.

Reply by Les_CO on 2/4/10 9:49am
Msg #321237

Re: if you knew that your state doesn't allow e-notorizations

I think someone is confusing e-signings, with e-notarizations. They are different.

Reply by EHarp/MO on 2/4/10 9:52am
Msg #321238

Re: if you knew that your state doesn't allow e-notorizations

It is not illegal for the borrower to sign the document in this state. It is the notarization that is an issue.

Reply by Les_CO on 2/4/10 9:55am
Msg #321239

Re: if you knew that your state doesn't allow e-notorizations

If you have absolutely no clue of what you are doing, perhaps you should not do it? Or try and learn how first?

Reply by jfs/IL on 2/4/10 9:57am
Msg #321241

Re: if you knew that your state doesn't allow e-notorizations

Correct me if I'm wrong...e-signing is usually done on the computer and the notarization part is still completed on the[paper copy. The advantage of e-signing is that is allows multiple pages to be signed with one click. And yes, e-notarization is different!

Reply by EHarp/MO on 2/4/10 4:33pm
Msg #321313

Re: if you knew that your state doesn't allow e-notorizations

It is one click per document for the borrower. Any document that has notarial wording should be printed if it is not recognized by the state.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/4/10 9:57am
Msg #321240

I haven't done an e-sign yet, but I think what I'm reading

here is certain docs in the online "package" had to be converted to paper to be printed. OP found out after the fact on the first one that some were not converted so he had a go-round with the company and finally got them and had to make a second trip to get them signed...

He got a second assignment and the same thing happened - certain docs weren't converted for paper printing and had the same go-round with the company.

OP, if this is correct, first of all I don't blame your interpretation - I too would have been concerned that my "witnessing" online would have been misconstrued. Now, some thoughts:: (1) On the first one if the return trip was due to a company issue, you should charge them for a second trip for this...(2) if you want the company's help they can't walk you through the system without the p/w - give it to them and change it immediately afterward;

Honestly, sounds like massive miscommunication to me...what a headache.

Reply by RickG/CA on 2/4/10 10:06am
Msg #321242

Was it a Fiserv eSign?

Most of the docs are electronically signed, and some you have to print and get a wet sig and notarization. You just have to know which are to be printed.

Reply by RickG/CA on 2/4/10 11:03am
Msg #321248

Good grief: s/b IT WAS a Fiserv eSign? n/m

Reply by EHarp/MO on 2/4/10 3:19pm
Msg #321289

Re: Was it a Fiserv eSign?

Rick, you are correct. The notarized documents came in a separate package. When I got to the first signing four documents were missing from the printed package. There was no way to print them at the signing. That required a second trip.

Being aware of the process, the 2nd time I wanted to check the online documents that the borrowers were to sign. That way if something needed to be printed, I could take it with me. My password would not open the documents although I had just logged into the system with it. That led to them wanting my password again. They were very agitated that I wanted to reconcile the printed package before the signing. (The Occupancy Affidavit was not in the printed package.) I wanted to make one trip and do it right the first time!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/4/10 3:29pm
Msg #321293

You know, I've had some "Affidavits" that didn't require

a notarization - heck, sometimes they don't even have signature lines for the borrowers!! So, maybe it wasn't available to print because they didn't want it notarized? Maybe you're overthinking what you're given - one size does not fit all and maybe what they provided to be printed and notarized was all they were asking for...if not, it's on them, not you - it's not up to you to quality control the company's e-sign policies and procedures.

Just a thought.

Reply by Les_CO on 2/4/10 10:24am
Msg #321246

Re: I haven't done an e-sign yet, but I think what I'm reading

I’ve done quite a few “e-signings.” It is not brain surgery. It could be confusing to someone that does not comprehend the difference between e-notarizations, and an e-signing. The notary doesn’t sign anything on-line, the borrowers simply check boxes. The ‘password’ is to get into the system. How can a notary in a state that does not allow e-notarizations, have a ‘secure state provided password’ to get their unique number (the number is used in lieu of a signature, or seal)? If you don’t have any idea of what you are doing, and apparently can’t read, or understand the instructions, and refuse to let the Title company, or SS that’s done thousands of these help you…..you are going to have trouble.

Reply by Les_CO on 2/4/10 11:05am
Msg #321250

Re: just to clarify

Just to clarify…If memory serves…the notary is asked to TYPE in their name, saying something like it was the actual borrowers that ‘checked the boxes’ and not the milkman.

Reply by EHarp/MO on 2/4/10 3:34pm
Msg #321295

Re: I haven't done an e-sign yet, but I think what I'm reading

Less, it was an e-signing. If the SS and TC (who have done thousands of these) knew there would not be an e-notarization then why would they repeatedly leave documents out of the printed package? They know ahead of time that it will require a wet/ink signature.

Reply by Les_CO on 2/4/10 8:53pm
Msg #321352

Re: I haven't done an e-sign yet, but I think what I'm reading

Sorry EHarp, but I just can’t help you. We have a real problem with communication; apparently we speak separate, different languages.

Reply by EHarp/MO on 2/4/10 4:36pm
Msg #321315

Re: I haven't done an e-sign yet, but I think what I'm reading

You are right, it was a big headache! I want to provide the best services that I can. The first time I felt like it could have been my not having enough time to prepair. The second time it smelt fishy.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 2/4/10 1:47pm
Msg #321271

Have not researched the issue, but as I understand it ...

e-notarizations refer to dox that are required be recorded (such as mortgages and
deeds) and are intended to be executed, notarized and recorded electronically.
It is authorized by state law in some states, and applied thrugh the county recorders offices if they elect ot accept electronic filing of such dox and the NP has "registered"in accordance with the law.
Non recorable dox in loan transactons, such a compliance agreements, and E & O agreements, do not require notarizaton unless the lender desires that they be notarized
If state law does not provide for e-notarization or if the NP is not signed up for it,
then electronically "notarizing" the doc , is ok , IF the lender provides for it. If you are
doing an""e-signing" and you are asked to "acknowledge" a doc, then it is, obviously , ok
with then lender. If it is not a "valid" notarization then it is the lender's problem, not yours.
Think of it as the NP saying, "I saw this guy , who I have previously determined to be the
guy, click on a button on a computer indicating that he was cool with the doc, and BTW,
I happen to be a NP"
I do not believe that it is illegal for a NP to participate in such a xtion, even if their state does
not have e-notarization.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/4/10 2:05pm
Msg #321274

If e-notarization is not enacted in a particular state

or if it is but the notary does not have their e-seal, then they're not notarizing the e-document at all - they're witnessing it...that's it...

And Bob...did you really mean to say this? "If state law does not provide for e-notarization or if the NP is not signed up for it, then electronically "notarizing" the doc , is ok , IF the lender provides for it." Again, if state law doesn't provide for it and/or the notary doesn't have their e-seal, then no notarization can take place..only a witnessing.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 2/4/10 2:17pm
Msg #321279

Agree. I did not word it too artfully, but if it is for

a non recordable doc and you are not an "e-notarizer, then it is
simply a witnessing of the doc by one who happens to be a NP

Reply by EHarp/MO on 2/4/10 3:47pm
Msg #321301

Re: Have not researched the issue, but as I understand it ...

Bob, thank you for chiming in. You are on track with what I am trying to resolve. An Occupancy Affidavit has a notarial certificate. If I sign it online, is that not the same as signing it with a wet signature. (Any notarization is based on the NP witnessing the signature.) If the lender did not need it notarized then why add the certificate wording? If I was to sign it online, with the certificate present, as a witness, do I carry the same liability?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/4/10 4:04pm
Msg #321306

If you don't have your e-seal (Issued by your state I

believe, or an authorized vendor for your state) then you are incapable of doing e-notarizations, so you wouldn't complete a certificate online - you'd just witness.

And if the company left it that way, that's their issue, not yours. It's very possible they'll have an in-office notary take care of notarizing that document.

Reply by EHarp/MO on 2/4/10 4:31pm
Msg #321311

Re: If you don't have your e-seal (Issued by your state I

Being the witness to a document with a notarial certificate is what I do not understand. If it has the wording and you are a NP and you witness it, are you liable as though it was sealed?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/4/10 2:06pm
Msg #321275

E-sign or E-notarize? Those are DIFFERNT things...

E-signs usually still involve a traditional ink notarization.

E-notarization involve an electronic notary seal --- and I've NEVER had any loan company ask for one of those. I do have an e-seal and I have used it (it's legal in CA), but not for loans.

Reply by MW/VA on 2/4/10 2:11pm
Msg #321276

I think it's already been covered, but the fact remains that there are paper docs w/e-signings.
I generally print those docs before going to the appt. There are still docs that require a "wet" signature from the borrower(s) & traditional notarization.
Is this what we're talking about here?
Also, if you search "e-signings" using the orange search button, you will find a lot of info in the archives.

Reply by EHarp/MO on 2/4/10 4:44pm
Msg #321317

MW, if you search e-singings you will find a lot of talk about how much money is invested, or how much a NSA should charge. (I like the boat anchor concept.) I could not find any thing that related to witnessing a document with notarial wording in an e-singing. My commission is worth more than any one signing fee. I don't mind taking some time to check myself to improve my knowledge and performance.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 2/4/10 9:17pm
Msg #321354

Your password could have allowed them to eNotarize the docs.

It appears to me that these were Fiserve sSigns for Flagstar loans and they DO have the notary perform eNotarizations as part of this. I have performed only one of these closings and found it to take much longer than an AmTrust eSigning due to the documents being set up as separate files instead of some of them being grouped together like in AmTrust eSigns.

They set you up in their system with a user name and password and ask for your commission information (name, commission #, and expiration date). If I remember correctly, all documents not requiring notarization are eSigned by the borrowers and 3 or 4 documents requiring notarization are eSigned by the borrowers AND eNotarized by the Notary, utilizing your commission information that you submitted to the lender. There is still a requirment to wet sign and notarize signatures on the recordable documents, at least that is how it was for the one I did.

I believe if you had given them your password, they could have signed into the system as you, accessed the documents for that loan and eNotarized the documents that you had refused to complete. This is assuming the borrowers had already electronically signed them and the lender's system would allow the borrowers to eSign and close out of a document so it could be accessed later for the notarization. There should be safeguards built into the system that would not allow this, as the notarization should happen as soon as the borrowers eSign the document, at least if a jurat is being performed. An acknowledgement would not have that same requirement, but both acts do require the presence of the signer.

This brings up the question of whether a signer can electronically sign a document and then access the document at a later date and ask a notary to execute an electronic acknowledgement (eNotarization) for that document.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/5/10 8:35am
Msg #321378

But Teresa, this raises the issue I posted

If the notary's state has not "recognized" (for lack of a better word) e-notarizations, and/or the particular notary has not obtained their e-seal, how is this a valid notarization? IMO it's not - and it's no different than if the company wet-signed a notarial certificate after the fact using the particular notary's information - the only thing missing is the stamp. I'm not an expert on e-notarizations, but it would seem to me that if I do not have a state-sanctioned e-seal, then just because Flagstar Bank says I can do it doesn't make it so!

MHO

Reply by Les_CO on 2/5/10 10:07am
Msg #321393

Re: But Teresa, this raises the issue I posted

Colorado does allow “e-notarizations” There are specific things a notary must do to be able to do these in CO. From reading the above posts it seems clear to me that some just do not understand what an “electronic notarization” is. I suppose if ones commissioned State does not allow e-notarizations, it would be expected that a notary within that State wouldn’t understand the process, or the concept? One can’t sign ones signature on a document online. One can’t stamp a document online.(although some States do not require a stamp) In the “e-signings” I’ve done I’ve never done an “electronic notarization”.
Does anyone know where we can find out what States do/do not allow “electronic notarizations”, and what the requirements are?

Reply by Teresa/FL on 2/5/10 12:02pm
Msg #321421

I agree with you Linda

If the state where the signing is taking place does not recognize eNotarizations, I don't see how this could be considered valid. Also, if you commission information is linked to your user name/password to sign on to their system, you should never give anyone else the information for them to sign on as if they are you, especially a SS. The potential for fraud is way to great.

Reply by EHarp/MO on 2/17/10 11:29am
Msg #323121

Re: Your password could have allowed them to eNotarize the docs.

That is what I thought. I immediately contacted Fiserv and they could not disable the account. So, I locked the account with too many attempted sign in failures. I just used some other password and it locked up on its own. Thank you for your input it really helps me feel a little better about the whole thing. I am very glad it was re-assigned.