Posted by Not_So_New on 2/17/10 12:15pm
Msg #323130

Fees and profit and loss

I've been a signing agent for a year. I read this board on ocassion and have found more ocassions lately since it's been slow. The fees offered have not really gone down since I started but have apparently gone down since many of you started in the business. The fees I'm offered range from $50 to $100, with the obvious average being $75. I would assume that those $125-$175 closing fees are being offered to those signing agents who have been around longer than I and have built relationships. Seems reasonable.

My estimated cost per closing is far less than the fees offered. Mileage is the main factor in my cost per hour since my overhead is fairly consistent with each closing. If I wasn't a signing agent, I would still have a cell phone, a computer, internet, a car, car insurance, etc. So the costs associated with this business for me is paper, quality printer, toner, E&O insurance and mileage/gas a few fees here and there. Overall, fairly low.

My point is that if I didn't accept the $75 closings then I wouldn't make enough money to pay my electric bill. Many of you have stated time and time again that you would lose money if you accept such low fees. How is that possible? $75 - 10 ml drive. 100 page package. 45 min closing. I figure my cost directly related to this business (again, not talking car, insurance, etc since I woud have those no matter what) would be about $3.00 for printing, $2.00 in gas and add another $2.00 for annualized fees, E&0, etc.

So my question is to those who say they lose money on the $75 closings, please clarify.

I'm ready, take your punches.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 2/17/10 12:30pm
Msg #323134

At the risk of getting flamed, I generally agree with you.

Not advocating low fees, but I have been at this a long time.
If I am going to be available as a NSA , I need to own a quality computer
and printer, as well as reliable transportaton, commission, insurance, etc. etc.
I look at my incremental costs of accepting a signing or not. Those costs
are primarily paper, toner and gas.
Have a per page cost of toner from my printer company and get paper at
Sams or Costco.
Dox for some sigings are just coming in . so I do not have time to elaborate now.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 2/17/10 12:37pm
Msg #323135

Where are your taxes?

15.2% for Fica
15.0% for Uncle Sam depending on your bracket
4-8% Depending on what state you call home.

Taking your $75.00 and putting on your tax load it comes to:
$11.40 to Fica
$11.25 to Sam
$04.50 to your Governor.

$27.15 total tax bill leaves 47.85 then subtracting your costs loosely totaling $15.00 leaves you $32.85 for your 1 to 2 hours of work. If that works for you, more power to you. I'm hoping/planning on more than $16.43 an hour.

Reply by JulieD/KS on 2/17/10 12:45pm
Msg #323136

Re: Where are your taxes?

What you are leaving out is the cost of your time.
When I started out back in 2003, I was willing to accept less...but then, 7 years ago, gas was $1.56 a gallon, my insurance rates were lower, paper cost less, I didn't have a good enough printer.

What i offer after 7 years is the experience of 7 years and a couple of thousand signings. I can't tell you how many errors I've caught just in the last few months that would have gone to the signing table and aborted the signing. Since I caught these errors in advance, the problems were fixed before I even printed the docs.

What I sell is my experience. The paper, toner, etc, is just a cost of business. I won't sell my experience for $75. I won't even sell it for $110 anymore. I tell the companies that are looking for someone cheaper that they will get what they pay for. If they need me later to fix a mess, I'll still charge the same.

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/17/10 12:54pm
Msg #323138

Read the following messages

319122, 319087, 319128

Notaries that charge a professional fee of $XXX already understand the sentiments expressed in those posts. Notaries who accept less than three digits for a loan signing have yet to "get it".

Reply by Not_So_New on 2/17/10 12:47pm
Msg #323137

Good question

First of all, I don't pay self employment taxes on the notary fee portion of the signing fee. Hence, 10 notarizations = $50 of a $75 fee is not subjected to self employment taxes.

Second, since I am self employed I am able to deduct some costs (ie, cell phone, internet, etc) and mileage from that same $75.00 fee. So with that, I'd say I'm back up to over $20+ per hour. And also considering that I can get that job done in an hour rather than 1.5, now I'm at $30+ per hour. Works for me.

Reply by Lee/AR on 2/17/10 12:55pm
Msg #323139

Re: Good question

I'm sure there are many companies that are happy that you 'don't count' many of your expenses so that you can make a 'profit'. You are using all that 'equipment' for more than personal use, so it will wear out faster and you'll have to replace it. ..where is that coming from? Being able to 'take a deduction' doesn't equate to money in your pocket... the money is still spent.

Reply by CinOH on 2/17/10 1:29pm
Msg #323146

Re: Good question

"You are using all that 'equipment' for more than personal use, so it will wear out faster and you'll have to replace it. ..where is that coming from?"

O/P the above statement sums it up in a nutshell.

You have discounted a large part of your overhead and you're subsidizing other people's expenses out of your own pocket. Not judging you, but that's crazy to me.

Yes, I have to have a phone, internet, computer, electricity, car, insurance, tires on the car, maintenance on the car, gas in the car, a cell phone, staples, pins, etc., etc., etc. I'm going to have those things regardless of whether I work as a SA or not. However, I'm not going to subsidize anyone else with my personal resources. I do not work for free.

Do you think the title company, signing service, loan officer, escrow, appraiser, etc. are going to use their own personal money or resources to subsidize their cost of doing business? Heck, no.

If they are in business for themselves they sit down and put pen to paper and figure out ALL their actual expenses, including their TIME (time is money--business 101) and they base their fees on ALL of those expenses so that they're profitable.

Again I don't judge you or anyone else working for low fees. You have to run your business as you see fit. However, I challenge you to sit down and figure out your actual business costs, including your time, and then see if closing a loan for $75.00 makes since by the numbers. Leave your personal feelings out of it. Just go by the numbers.

If you don't know what to charge for your time, use the hourly rate you would get at a regular job that you're trained for or impute minimum wage.

A $75.00 closing looks a lot different on paper.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/17/10 1:16pm
Msg #323141

Re: Good question

But that $50 is still subject to Federal Income tax...so you're still paying taxes on that income - at least I hope you are...

I had a much longer post ready (all polite) , but I think I'll refrain....I learned long ago I don't like to debate an issue with someone who pops up out of nowhere, posts anonymously (your state isn't even accurate, it's the default), and defends the practice of accepting low fees. I smell an agenda...

Sorry...mho

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/17/10 2:23pm
Msg #323155

Re: Good question

<<<I learned long ago I don't like to debate an issue with someone who pops up out of nowhere, posts anonymously (your state isn't even accurate, it's the default), and defends the practice of accepting low fees. I smell an agenda...>>>

I'm wondering that too, Linda. Lowball fees is such a flaming subject sure to generate a long string of posts before the day is over. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the OP is actually Fairfax/CA reborn......

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/17/10 2:28pm
Msg #323157

Linda, Exactly what I thought when reading original post! n/m

Reply by Not_So_New on 2/17/10 4:22pm
Msg #323181

Start unpacking and don't go there Bob! LOL!

It's not worth it.

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/17/10 1:18pm
Msg #323142

First of all let me say, brave post, congrats to you. I haven't seen anywhere from posters ahead of me that they Advertise.....That is a very big expense here in the S F Bay area not to mention a much higher cost of living. I spend more time in traffic than at the signing so gas is a big expense too. For example, last month my gas bill (car) was $225.00. It's a six cylinder. No punches thrown IMO.

Reply by Larry/IL on 2/17/10 1:19pm
Msg #323144

$50 is OK !!!

I have an acquaintance that meets with a few other NSAs about once a month. Mostly only to grab a bite to eat, socialize and maybe have a beer. I have only stop by a couple of times. More than that becomes a bit of a downer. I am a full time NSA, I probably charge upper to middle of the road fees that most talk about on this board. I have tried to explain to the part timers that $50, YES $50 & sometimes with E-Docs is really under cutting what they can and should be charging. I have explained how it affects the rest of us. They explain to me they are happy to do closings for $50 and that's way more than they make now per hour, and an extra $500-$700 per month is very welcomed extra income. What use to be 3 of them meeting in the last year in now up 8 people, all doing $50 closings in the Chicago area. They have told friends and family how easy it is. I just found out recently that one of them has been working with a local title company and told the title company they would do everyone they could get for $60. They were very excited explaining how they drove only 10 miles and did a reverse closing with docs for $100. I rarely meet them anymore because it was frustrating trying to convince them otherwise. In the mean time I wonder if some of the slowdown I have seen is just the industry or am I losing work to NSAs that think like this. I am fortunate that I do taxes and this is a busy time of year for me, but I am looking for a different source of income or than closings before tax season ends.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/17/10 1:24pm
Msg #323145

I'd LOVE to drive 10 miles for a signing

My signing last night was 115 miles rt, including package drop. My average travel for any one signing around here is 75-90 miles round trip. I don't think I've EVER had a 10-mile signing...

I'm jealous..

Reply by Cari on 2/17/10 5:10pm
Msg #323194

Well, all you Chicago NSA's...wondering where the biz is

going...its going to all the part-timers taking gigs for $50 bucks....I think I'm physically sick....

Kudos to you Larry/IL for trying to talk some sense to your pals...it would probably be cheaper to pay them $50 NOT to take those gigs.....$hit...

Reply by ikando on 2/19/10 12:16pm
Msg #323488

Re: $50 is OK !!!

"one of them has been working with a local title company and told the title company they would do everyone they could get for $60"

When I first read it, I interpreted it to mean that this was an employee of the title company. Even if that is NOT the case, since the signing is done at the title office, it's a sure bet the paperwork is printed there and all s/he has to do is walk in and watch the paper flow. $60 for that--no expense but the travel to the office--is great pay.

However, if someone is an NSA for a primary source of income, don't forget to include retirement/savings in the budget equation. As one nearing that time, I'm very conscious of what's put aside.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/17/10 1:32pm
Msg #323147

"My point is that if I didn't accept the $75 closings then I wouldn't make enough money to pay my electric bill. Many of you have stated time and time again that you would lose money if you accept such low fees. How is that possible? $75 - 10 ml drive. 100 page package. 45 min closing. I figure my cost directly related to this business (again, not talking car, insurance, etc since I would have those no matter what) would be about $3.00 for printing, $2.00 in gas and add another $2.00 for annualized fees, E&0, etc."


Okay, I'll bite. Simply put... you're not running a business.

For example: Does your car insurance company know that you are using your vehicle for business purposes? Did you know that a LOT of personal insurance premiums exclude business use in their coverage? Obviously, this depends on your specific coverage, and the vehicle you use... but there's a reason insurance companies ask you is you use your car for business. If you lie to them... you're asking for trouble.

Also, sure... I buy paper all the time for personal use. But I don't buy cases of it! Also, my cell phone plan would be much cheaper if I only used it for personal use -- as would most of my utilities at home, actually. If I worked a 9-5 out of the office, I wouldn't have my lights and heat on all day in my house. I would have a spare guest room instead of a full running office, I wouldn't have magnets on my car, business cards, or the latest laptop. I certainly would not have 4 printers and loads of other things that I use for my business. Also, while, sure... I would already have a car, my costs of running it would be MUCH reduced. I'd spend less than $100 on gasoline each month if I weren't using my car for business. But since I do... I spent a WHOLE lot more than that. I have to change the oil more often, the tires, etc. It all factors in. I've got to pay for these extra expenses somehow AND try to not only pay the bills, but earn a profit, too.

I think if you sat down with an accountant you'd get a nice fat slap of reality. You think you are paying your electric bill.... great, but you're not making a profit. The goal of being in business is NOT to just pay the bills, but to make a profit. As I posted not too long ago about this woman who just got nailed by the IRS... if you aren't working with an actual PROFIT in mind, you're not running a business, but a hobby. There's the difference.

I don't fault those who take lower fees... I think people are going to charge what they charge. The best we can do is try to educate you to make sure you aren't short changing yourself. Operating as a signing agent for less than $90-$100 a signing is, in general... not very profitable. This varies from state to state and to each individual circumstance, but that's just an average ball park. There's no harm in taking the occasional low fee if it will be actually profitable for you.

Some people need to make enough to cover child care... well, what's the point of only working for child care money and covering expenses if you aren't also making a nice profit? You're much better off saving all that money spent on the business and staying home with your kids than working like crazy and never seeing them to end up with the same result?

The key is PROFIT... not just paying the bills. Your profit is what's left AFTER paying all the bills.

And don't even get me started on mixing your personal and business expenses. I suggest taking a business finance class...and an accounting class or two.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/17/10 1:39pm
Msg #323148

Great post, Marian... n/m

Reply by SOCAL/CA on 2/17/10 1:45pm
Msg #323149

You just been called out Not_So_New of AK. Come on out! n/m

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/17/10 2:34pm
Msg #323160

Marian .. your one sentence sumed it all up!

"Okay, I'll bite. Simply put... you're not running a business. "

Couldn't have said it any better

Reply by bagger on 2/17/10 6:08pm
Msg #323216

Re: Marian .. your one sentence sumed it all up!

Everybody's situation is different.
Some of us are running a business for "beer money.'
If we make a profit, so be it, of not the IRS will shut us down for not making a profit, and disallow our expenses.
If I am receiving a pension that pays my medical expenses, then that is an expense that I am not incurring, and I can lower my fees. If I have a source where I can get "free paper and toner" that lowers my expenses. Put on your big girl panties and deal with it. It's called Capotilism.
Every "newbie:" inquires as to the prevailing rates, yet the experienced people will not share thise rate in frear of price fiixing - is it fear of price fixing, or the fear of the established people letting the newbies knowing what the oing rates are?
I feel it is the latter..
Expierenced people beware - you will be undercut until you share the going rate!
This is NOT price fixing this is merely sharing what YOU charge for a given service.

TOGETHER, We cjan make a diifernce

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/17/10 6:15pm
Msg #323217

Re: Marian .. your one sentence sumed it all up!

"If I have a source where I can get "free paper and toner" that lowers my expenses. Put on your big girl panties and deal with it. It's called Capotilism."

Really? I thought that was called stealing from your employer.

There's no such thing as "free paper and toner." I know that there are a few that have an open agreement with their employers... but there are only a few of them. I'm sure the rest are doing it without letting them know the full truth of what they're doing. If they know, the bean counters would nix it quickly.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/17/10 6:21pm
Msg #323218

bagger:

*Every "newbie:" inquires as to the prevailing rates, yet the experienced people will not share thise rate in frear of price fiixing - is it fear of price fixing, or the fear of the established people letting the newbies knowing what the oing rates are?*

Let me slip on my big girl panties....now...let me ask you this,

Do you disbelieve me when I say that I have talked to the DOJ twice and they asked me if I was, or if I knew of any notaries doing exactly what you are chastising 'us' for not doing?

It's not fun. But, by all means, if you think it is fear rather than being law abiding, have at it.

Reply by jba/fl on 2/17/10 6:46pm
Msg #323223

Re: Marian .. your one sentence sumed it all up!

"It's called Capotilism."

Is that similiar to pointillism?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/18/10 12:59am
Msg #323293

ROFLMAO!!!!!! n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 2/17/10 6:23pm
Msg #323219

On the mark, as usual, Marian.

I always think I'm doing pretty well, but tax time is a real reality check.

Reply by CH2inCA on 2/17/10 1:52pm
Msg #323150

Using this reasoning;
The cup of coffee at my local diner should cost me about .10.

I'm sure it doesn't cost them 2.50. And since they were probably going to make coffee anyway...

Reply by JanelWI on 2/17/10 1:55pm
Msg #323151

$75 for 10 mile drive......wow. I would love to only have a 10 mile drive one way. For those in the rural community who has an average drive of 35-70 miles one way...............all the time; have no choice but to charge more for travel. Some companies offering these lower fees, I don't think understand or perhaps care about the difference between cites, towns, villages etc...the cheaper notary gets the job, period. No, I can't drive that far for $75, unless perhaps I am already going in that direction, which I have done for loan mods, and helocs...etc. However, it does not map out that conveniently all the time. Nor do docs show up on time, all the time.

I would also have to disagree with you on equipment. I now have a laptop I otherwise would not own for e-signings, air card.....etc, Computers do not last forever, what I would consider for business and home use, are two different things. I have accounting software I would not have purchased for this business, if I was not doing this business. I have the expense of an accountant to do my partnership returns each year (not cheap). Sorry, I don't do taxes. Do you do any advertising at all? Some forums I choose to pay for, I guess for business reasons. So that is my choice, but is an expense never the less. I have a multifunction laser printer for scanning, copy, fax, and printing, that I otherwise would have opted for a less expensive machine for the general home office use. Toner and drums? Do I really need to go into that additional expense? When home offices, if they had a laser printer would do far less volume, therefore costing less? Please, that is a big expense, along with paper that not everyone would "just have". I also have a basic b&W laser printer because my first multifunction printer died, and when they die, they don't print. So now I have a back up, so I can stay running. Two printers.

I have the additional cost of the fax backs that come with this business, that I would not normally have. I have internet on my cell phone that I could care less about if I was not doing this business. I just need to call people, I don't need to shop from my phone. I put on 40,000+ miles per year, more wear and tear on a vehicle than normal, I get my oil changed nearly every 4 weeks at the least in the busy season. Wow, I guess unless you are a truck driver, or perhaps have a 3hr commute every day; that is more than the average. I pay more for car insurance because of the business. I have had to replace the rear hub assembly on my 2.5 year old vehicle due to wear and tear. Because of the miles I do, the power train warranty no longer applies. The list could definitely go on, but I guess you get the point. All this is necessary to the type and level of service I provide. This is not a part time gig for me. In short, there is more to this business than just what you mentioned, that is why depending upon location, and other factors, for some $75 is not enough.

In my opinion, you are looking at this very superficially. You still have to account for all the things you would normally have to be able to cover them, 'because" they now are necessary to do your business. You now have an interest to protect those things. That is part of your overhead costs. To be successful in business, it is also important to recognize what it is you don't know. Hidden costs can kill a business because they don't recognize additional drains on finances, or they take them for granted. I am 13 years in, and I don't claim to know it all, but I know there is more to it for many of us than the basic overview you provided to justify $75 fees. I don't have a problem with $75 or those who want to charge it. This is a competitive business and a free market. To each their own. All I am saying is that you have more to deal with as far as expenses than you realize.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/17/10 2:08pm
Msg #323153

"I put on 40,000+ miles per year, more wear and tear on a vehicle than normal"

Resulting in decreased vehicle value due to high mileage.

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/17/10 2:19pm
Msg #323154

I purchased another vehicle because driving a Suburban around for signings was economically stupid so that business decision increased my cost factor tremendously, even if it was a Lexus. LOL

Reply by Laura_V on 2/17/10 2:30pm
Msg #323159

Running car and computer equipment into ground

It's important to make a profit to make a living, of course, but also you need to have money to replace your car and your computer equipment.

So it's not just gas and paper/toner.

And make certain you have more than enough E&O insurance (both types: notary and business owner) to more than cover your assets.


Bravely and clearly written post, NSN.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/17/10 2:43pm
Msg #323163

Re: Running car and computer equipment into ground

Laura makes a great point, here. You need to be bringing in enough to cover future expenses, too. What happens to your business if your car breaks down? Your printer? Your computer? Are you prepared to make those replacements quickly and easily?

This should all be part of a business plan and you need to be bringing in enough of a profit to have an emergency fund, in cash. Don't rely on credit cards to get you by in an emergency. The money to pay that credit back will need to come from somewhere... and it's far less expensive to take it from a cash emergency fund than have to pull it out of nowhere.

Build a business plan... go over ALL your expenses... figure out what you'll need to keep operating in an emergency or "slump" ... then attach a percentage of profit above all that that will cover everything AS WELL AS give you a profit to live on.

If you honestly do it right, you'll find that $75 probably won't come close.

Reply by Frenchie/TN on 2/17/10 3:16pm
Msg #323167

Re: Running car and computer equipment into ground

IMHO most of the Notaries who take low fee simply forget the cost of operating a car. That is the most expensive part of performing our job. The IRS allows .55c per mile for wear and tear, gas etc on a car. Most of the time depending on the car we drive it will be more than that. So when you factor in your expenses for a signing, please, not-so-new don't figure $2. worth of gas for 10 miles, figure .55c x 10 miles = $5.50. Same goes for wear and tear on the equipment you use. And as others have pointed out depending on where one lives 10 miles could be 10mns or 1 hr. So each Notary has to price accordingly. There is an area here that's in the mountains, with a narrow road full of switchbacks which makes for slow driving and I automatically up my fee by $50. to go there.

Reply by Not_So_New on 2/17/10 3:19pm
Msg #323168

Thanks for all the input. My original question however was

to those who may have stated that they are losing money if they take a $50 or $75 closing. How can anyone's overhead, above and beyond the normal non-self employed individual, be so high that if they made $2,500 a month (33 closings @ $75) that their expenses would be more than $2,500/month or $30,000/year? (Keep in mind I'm not talking about traveliing 100 miles per closing).


Look, I'll take $150 signings every day and would love to be in a position where my schedule was so full of $150 signings that I could easily turn back anything less than $100. But that's not the case at all. With regards to mileage, I don't have to travel more than 20 miles one way to stay busy. I also have a busy personal life and it's easy enough to schedule my many weekly errands around my closings. Do that all the time. And at the end of the day, I do make a profit. While I am not the bread winner of the household, my income is necessary and if I was losing money or breaking even I wouldn't bother. I do indeed know how to run a business.

Just a footnote: I worked in a professional office environment for years. I spent a small fortune on wardrobe alone not to mention the drycleaning. I have just a couple of outfits that I wear to closings. For me, and many of you, that should definitely factor into annual profits.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/17/10 3:26pm
Msg #323170

Re: Thanks for all the input. My original question however was

*(33 closings @ $75) that their expenses would be more than $2,500/month or $30,000/year? *

I was going to write a long comment but then I realized it would just draw you out to argue this point.

I submit that anyone who "pro" doing closings routinely now for $75 is also subbing them out as well as taking them.

Reply by Not_So_New on 2/17/10 3:35pm
Msg #323171

It was an example. I'm very much more "pro" to $XXX fees

And who in the heck would even bother trying to sub out a $75 closing???? Not me lady.

Last time (starting to feel like a dentist pulling teeth) the question was to those who claimed they are losing money. Opposite of making money. Taking a loss. Opposite of making a profit.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/17/10 4:06pm
Msg #323174

Re: It was an example. I'm very much more "pro" to $XXX fees

"And who in the heck would even bother trying to sub out a $75 closing???? Not me lady. "

Why not, you seem to be convinced that you can make a profit at $50? Surely, you have been able to convince others in your area that they, too can make a profit at $50.

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/17/10 4:06pm
Msg #323175

Re: It was an example. I'm very much more "pro" to $XXX fees

Not_So_New: Escrow charges borrower $250 for signing. Escrow calls SS and offers $200 to find Notary. They find you and offer $75 for the loan signing.

Here's what you did for the $75

Print docs & prep for signing (time, wear & tear on equipment); travel to borrowers (time in traffic, mileage, wear & tear on vehicle); conduct signing (time, possible wear & tear on nerves & psyche, depending on borrower); travel back to starting point if fax is required (time in traffic, mileage, wear & tear on vehicle and office equipment), ship docs (time, wear & tear on vehicle); prepare invoice (time)

Here's what SS did for $125

Sat on rear-end and called you (time, 3 mins)

That makes logical/rational/good business sense to you?

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/17/10 4:14pm
Msg #323177

That turned south in a hurry & you missed my point.

If you assume you are talking to someone who is low grade on brains (and that's what you sound like, "lady" then yes, it is like dental work, isn't it?

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/17/10 4:19pm
Msg #323180

Let me clear up what I just said...I don't think YOU are

the one who is low grade on brains, I think you are looking at the rest of us that way.

Sorry...wanted to be sure you understand that I think you sound very intelligent, but you seem to have started an agenda here to "educate" the rest of us.

Many of the people here are some of the smartest you'll come across. They won't drop their prices just because you have a theory (or agenda) to promote that. So YES, indeed...it would be like dental work to try and explain something they already know to be wrong...pleebs...every one of us.

Reply by Not_So_New on 2/17/10 4:42pm
Msg #323185

No worries.

I refer to this site at times. Someone said once upon a time that you would lose money on $75 closing. Everyone's business is different and I was wondering just how different.

I do many $75 closings each month at a local branch office. Not a TC. I can drive there, conduct the closing and drop the package in less than an hour. Their office is convenient to the the grocery, the mall, the bank, the pharmacy, etc. one of which I am at several times a week. They are always scheduled between 9:00 and 4:00. For me it's a no brainer to do these closings all day long. A profit is being made and the stress factor is far less than many of the higher paid closings. Night driving, missed dinners, calling in favors for kids' rides to practices etc. sometimes is just not worth that extra $50.

Reply by JanelWI on 2/17/10 5:23pm
Msg #323198

Re: No worries.

You failed to mention this in your original post. If you can drive there, do as many closings as you wish for $75. That's great. However, I believe the others were speaking of traveling from home to home or B2B. You can't fit your model to someone who has to drive. That costs more, and many companies call for travel over 10 miles one way. Bottom line, your business model does not fit everyone. That was my point with some SS companies. They think $75 works for 50 miles one way as it does for 10 miles. That is what people mean by losing money.

Stress factor??? Personally, if you are inquisitive, understand the industry, understand the loan type you are signing, willing to educate yourself, understand the documents, understand your place in the closing process, understand your states notarial laws as it pertains to witnessing a document, I don't see the stress factor you are speaking of, price does not determine stress factor in terms of closings.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/17/10 7:12pm
Msg #323225

Re: No worries. NSN says...

*I do many $75 closings each month at a local branch office. Not a TC. I can drive there, conduct the closing and drop the package in less than an hour.*

Well, let's see...if I could go to my town for $75, notarize a few documents and go out to shop or back home, never having to ship or print...no longer having to drive around looking for a house in the dark in Greater South Cootersville, would I? Yep. Probably.

But you didn't say that it was simply mileage involved, did you? That's quite a different story.

Reply by dickb/wi on 2/17/10 7:23pm
Msg #323230

since when did a "FULL TIME" business ever........

predicate its fees or price of goods based on its proximity to the grocery store, the pharmacy, or the ice cream shop.....what about the wear and tear on all of your equipment incl but not limited to: paper, printer, toner, postage, check fees, fica, income taxes, auto expenses, insurance [e&o--liab--health-auto-fire-life-dental-], bond, seal,......time to download....time to assemble docs in a decent presentation order......time for driving to and from.....time to do the closing.....time to drive and drop docs......and on ad infinitum.......you need to get real or work for some one else.......jmho./

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/17/10 4:00pm
Msg #323172

Re: Thanks for all the input. My original question however was

N_S_N_, In sales you get what you ask for. You don't get the $125-$150/signings because you haven't asked for it is my point.

In '94 I started working for a traveling photography company. At the time, if I had an avg of $26.00/sittings (usually 110-150/weekend) the company would make a profit. Not a large one and my pay was good (or so I thought at the time). I had already been in sales for years, but when I learned to sell (or negotiate my fees in reference to signing fees) my averages went up to over $86/sittings which more than triple my pay. For the same amount of work. It was then that I learned that my time, talent, experience, service and knowledge were worth more and I stopped selling myself short.

My overall point is that too many people are afraid of "not getting the assignment" and just accept the lower offers. When I owned my own photography company (for 10 years), I would have loved to have independent contractors that didn't mind just covering costs (or lower if they counted overhead as you do). Not trying to attack you on that point, it just seems that you may not, as others have already pointed out, have considered all of your true overhead.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/17/10 4:56pm
Msg #323189

You're looking at it from the wrong perspective...

You said, "And at the end of the day, I do make a profit."

No, you don't... because you're not truly factoring in all of your expenses. You're not counting certain expenses because you think you'd be paying for them anyway. That's really erroneous thinking, and we've all explained why already.

You can't look at the total you "make" each month an compare it to what you might earn as a regular employee. Here's a real cold hard fact about being self-employed: You need to bring in 3-5 times the amount of money that you would need as a regular employee. So, if you need $2,500 a month a to live, you need to be bringing in at least $7500 worth of invoices. This will cover your business expenses, give you money to handle emergencies, operate you business and THEN money for you to take out personally to survive.

Let's take your example of $2500 a month (33 x $75) and I will use my expenses. Or at least... generalized expenses. These are not my exact expenses, but they are realistic and I'm sure pretty much on average what people pay.


Monthly costs of just being a notary, spread out over a 4-year period. This includes education, application, materials, bonds, etc. Keep in mind that this is for California: $10/month

E&O Insurance ($100K, 4 year policy): $10/month
Business Owner's Insurance: (This can vary widely depending on policies) $30-$300/month
Personal & Commercial Auto Insurance Policy (combined): $150
Cell Phone: $120
Office Phone/Fax: $40
Office Supplies (pens, sticky notes, etc.): $20

33 signings = about 10,000 sheets of paper (@300 pages a pop) - That's 2 full cases of paper and will cost you about $50-60 if you find it on sale.

Toner. 10,000 pages means 2-3 toner cartridges depending on the capacity. That will easily set you back $100 or more. Less if you refill yourself... but not everyone does that.

Gas. Let's say 20 miles RT a signing as average (which is LOW). With 33 signings, that's 660 miles, and let's say you get about 300 miles on a full tank of gas. Gas will cost about $60-$80 minimum.

PO BOX rental: Not everyone does this, but I do because I don't publish my home address (even though it is available to the public if they call the SOS...grrr.) That's about $5 month.

Website hosting fees: $15/month. This includes my email... professional email. I don't believe in using freebie email accounts for business purposes.

Business cards, marketing materials: $50/month

Electricity: $30 a month on average for business purposes

Technology/equipment: $130 a month (most of this goes to cover replacement and repair, or sits in my emergency fund until I need it. I don't buy my equipment on credit. If I need a new laptop or printer... I pay cash.)

That's nearly $800 a month right there... and I've not even covered everything! I also know that I tend to be very frugal with my expenses, too, so let's round this up to $1000.

Now, what about your TIME? that's what you should be charging for. A Signing agent should be (IMO) be charging about $50 an hour for his/her time. This is a professional time charge IN ADDITION to the notarizations and ABOVE your expenses. This fee helps you build an operating buffer as well as cover taxes. Even if all your signings took exactly an hour (HA!) then that would be $1650.

Yes, you still have to pay income tax. The only exemption you get is SE tax on notary fees... if you take them. I don't recommend you take the exemption, and I've explained why elsewhere several times. IF you're not the sole income source for your family, that likely means a high tax bracket....which means higher taxes.

So I've already managed to blow out your $2500 (we're at $2650) and that is a conservative overview.

And that's IF you get 33 signing a month. Newsflash... not everyone can get that. In fact, I know some notaries that are thrilled to get 1or 2 a week at this point. Then there is the whole 45-60 day wait time to get paid.... you're losing money while you wait, and it's fairly well established that the lower paying companies take longer to pay.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/17/10 3:11pm
Msg #323166

N_S_N -- check out these msgs on a business v. a hobby

You might be viewing your "business" as a business but will the IRS? One of the msgs below tells the story of a SA accepting low paying assignments and the IRS's view that she was not, in fact, operating a business but actually had a hobby.

Even Microsoft had an internal report that stated they could make a profit selling XP at $45 -- you won't find an original copy, even on sale, for that price.

Msg #320725
Msg #319265
Msg #320673

Use the orange search button to find them I only mention this because you said that you have used board "on occasion". Not meant to be condescending.

Example A:

3 signings for $50/ea = $150, 3X’s the time, gas, overhead (all overhead), risk …

Example B:

1 signing for $150 = more available time to accept another signing/notary job, less gas, less overhead expenses, less risk exposure …

Hummmm…. I’ll take B for $150, Alex (but that’s just me)

As an afterthought, you might want to keep in mind that, for the most part, the end customer (bo) is still being charged $150--$400, on average, for mobile notary signing/closing services.

Reply by Les_CO on 2/17/10 4:12pm
Msg #323176

Welcome Not_So_New!
Just to let you know… Your anonymous opinion, and post mean as much to me as a Not-So-new pile of dog crap on the Two Grey Hills carpet in my foyer.
You could be a cross-dressing bartender from Atlantic City, or a 14 year old from Anchorage. Either way your anonymity renders you, and your opinions impotent, meaningless, and not worth a response. (I have to admit you got to me on the last one)

Reply by Not_So_New on 2/17/10 4:18pm
Msg #323178

That's about the tackiest display of a "non response" as I think I've ever seen on this site. You should be more than proud to link your identity to such profound and thought provoking comments Les. Pour yourself another one why don't cha.

Reply by Les_CO on 2/17/10 4:24pm
Msg #323182

A non-response to a non-entity….what could be more approperate?

Reply by Not_So_New on 2/17/10 4:47pm
Msg #323186

It's spelled "appropriate". Looks like you did pour another n/m

Reply by Les_CO on 2/17/10 4:50pm
Msg #323187

Re: It's spelled "appropriate". Looks like you did pour another

You are a poser, a phony, an imposter and a fool that clearly knows nothing about this business…go elsewhere with your unwanted drivel!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/17/10 5:03pm
Msg #323191

NSN? "ocassion".....it's "occasion"...

apology accepted on Les's behalf.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 2/17/10 5:05pm
Msg #323192

Re: you know what they say about living in glass houses

and throwing stones

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/17/10 5:39pm
Msg #323207

Not stones, Carolyn. They are beanbags ..LOL n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 2/17/10 6:00pm
Msg #323214

How about a glass outhouse? n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/17/10 11:22pm
Msg #323286

Re: How about a glass outhouse? - ROTFL !!!!! n/m

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/17/10 5:13pm
Msg #323196

"You should be more than proud to link your identity to such profound and thought provoking comments"

Les has no need to link his profile. We all know who Les is, he has been a respected member of this community for many years. While we know jack s**t about you!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/17/10 5:38pm
Msg #323206

Now, now Sylvia

... we know a little bit more than that.

We know she has no business acumen. She can't distinguish a business expense from a personal expense, thinks that what she does is tax-deductible and she's quick to insult.

And she's afraid to answer my posts directly.

I really hope the IRS busts her. That sounds petty... but it's probably the only way it will sink in.

NSN... you're NOT operating as a business, so you can't ask us to justify ourselves. You're operating as a hobby. It's entirely different.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/17/10 5:43pm
Msg #323209

Re: Now, now Sylvia

You are so right Marian

(I sometimes get "Becca" moments - although she would have torn NSN to pieces by now LOL)

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/17/10 5:46pm
Msg #323211

So true! There are times when I really miss her. n/m

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 2/17/10 4:25pm
Msg #323183

Re: As others have said

I, too, had typed a long response and chose not to send it. It's obvious that you can't see the forest for the trees -- meaning that you've made up your mind, so it really doesn't matter what anyone else says.

However, you said something in another post that I do want to touch upon. You said something like doing 35 signings a month at $75/each. First of all, when self-employed, there is NO GUARANTEED INCOME/PAYCHECK-- and yes, I meant to shout. Even low balling at $75 doesn't guarantee you any set number of signings per day/week or month.

Your inexperience in this business is showing because you're counting your money before you've even earned it. After you've done the 35 signings and have been paid for each and every one of them, then you can say that you've earned $2,625.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 2/17/10 4:55pm
Msg #323188

Re: and to go along with what I've already said

from your original post:
**I read this board on ocassion and have found more ocassions lately since it's been slow.**

See, there are no guarantees!

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/17/10 5:14pm
Msg #323197

Sorry to say..but

Not so new.....I've noticed you've been going at it pretty hot and heavy since 12:15 pm. What's up? No signings today? I've done two since you started, $125 per and two still in the works...Did you make your profit today? I did....hope I didn't miss (punches).............Ooh sorry, I do love this forum!

Reply by Not_So_New on 2/17/10 5:26pm
Msg #323199

I too love this forum.

I love the pettiness. I especially love the regulars who are predictable with their responses. I love the way so many are threatened easily. I especially love the utter denial that this business has changed. I love the innocent belief that if we all just stick together that the signing companies and the title companies will one day change their minds and start doubling the fees again. I'll check back in a year and you just let me know how that stategy is working for ya!

Good night and good luck.

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/17/10 5:28pm
Msg #323201

Re: I too love this forum.

O K Sarah P. You betcha

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/17/10 5:33pm
Msg #323203

Huh? What happened here?

I posted a message and all I see is a link to my profile....

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/17/10 5:31pm
Msg #323202

!

"I especially love the utter denial that this business has changed"

This business has changed - I don't see anyone denying that.
And it is signing agents like you, who obviously do this more as a hobby who has denigrated this business.
And you can put that in your pipe and smoke it buster!!

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/17/10 5:34pm
Msg #323204

Re: I too love this forum.

"I especially love the utter denial that this business has changed"

This business has changed - I don't see anyone denying that.
And it is signing agents like you, who obviously do this more as a hobby who has denigrated this business.
And you can put that in your pipe and smoke it buster!!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/17/10 5:42pm
Msg #323208

You know what they say about makin' mamma mad...

When Sylvia, of all people, starts getting uppity... look out.

Nobody denies the business has changed. But, NSN... there's this idea that we are supposed to just take what we're offered. That's ridiculous. We're NOT employees! We're individual business owners. The companies forget that they're dealing with another business, not an employee.

Sadly, a lot of notaries out there have no clue how to run a BUSINESS, but they do have experience as an employee...so they just take it.

I'll bet if you took your books to an accountant, you'd get a good talking to.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/17/10 5:44pm
Msg #323210

been working just fine for me. They meet my fees..U? :-) n/m

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/17/10 7:13pm
Msg #323228

this was for NSN. ended up lower than expected. n/m

Reply by Karla/WA on 2/17/10 7:13pm
Msg #323227

Re: I too love this forum.

I am sorry to hear these sentiments from NSN and my heart goes out to those notaries in the vicinity of NSN where he/she is undercutting all other notaries. It's really a "screw you" attitude. The problem is, these notaries reside all across the country and nothing we say will change their minds.

I sincerely believe there is a belief that this job is fast money. But, are these same notaries troubleshooting the signing before they even get docs? Are they committed to a job well done? How many times have they saved the loan by being the professional face of the loan? There is value in what we do and yes, we should be compensated for that professional behavior.

I will say that there is no changing this person's mind in how they will operate in the future. I also have a feeling that this behavior runs steady throughout the industry and not just affecting AK notaries......this individual has just chosen to verbalize their strategy.

We won't change their beliefs, practices or how they price their services. They are in it for themselves only. Too bad they have chosen to undercut all the professional notaries. Shame on you.

Reply by dickb/wi on 2/17/10 7:34pm
Msg #323232

good G--man can't u c when we are trying to......

help and educate u to be able to make a better income for u and your family......you young whipersnappers should listen to the voice of experience.......just like young people learn from their parents...u all should learn from your elders and i am probably more than twice as old as u.......jmho!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply by Roger_OH on 2/17/10 7:56pm
Msg #323234

Whippersnapper? Geez Dick...

Chicago Bob and I are probably the only ones here that know what that is!

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/17/10 8:06pm
Msg #323237

Re: Whippersnapper? Geez Dick...

I also know what a whippersnapper is

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 2/17/10 9:06pm
Msg #323251

I know too n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/17/10 8:48pm
Msg #323244

Re: Whippersnapper? Geez Dick...

LOL...Not quite Roger...

Reply by Roger_OH on 2/17/10 10:08pm
Msg #323271

Re: Was trying to be polite, ladies... :) n/m

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/18/10 12:46am
Msg #323291

Re: Whippersnapper? Geez Dick...

didn't Festus use that a few times on wagon train??

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/17/10 9:30pm
Msg #323263

I know, I know, oohhh pick me, pick me! ...

Is that when you are making a lemon meringue pie? You put the egg whites in a bowl then “Whip er snap” it to make the white peaks.

See, I know too! Yea me!

Reply by jba/fl on 2/17/10 10:15pm
Msg #323274

No, no - pick me - Ladies first!

My nickname when growing up - in the 80's of course!

Reply by John Schenk on 2/17/10 7:13pm
Msg #323226

Sounds like the disgruntled employee from Fairfax...

that made his posts on the way out the door, to me. JMO

JJ

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/17/10 7:21pm
Msg #323229

<<<I especially love the regulars who are predictable with their responses. I love the way so many are threatened easily.>>>

Threatened? LOL....I doubt anyone here takes you seriously. You are viewed as a clueless hobbyist, with an employee mentality screwed out of a professional fee by your own ignorance and lack of business acumen. I now believe you do have an agenda - an agenda to convince the masses that the lowball fee of $75 covers expenses and renders a profit.

Then when you are called out on your faulty logic, you change your story - now you do the signings at a "local branch office" that's not a TC (i.e. 323185) conveniently near what is described as a strip mall and you want others to believe that of the 30+ signings ALL of them are conducted between 9 - 4pm at this office.....wow, ALL of the borrowers can get off work and to this "local branch office" between 9 - 4pm? None of the signings are at the borrowers homes? And if there is an office to sign at, why is there not an in-house Notary? Why are they calling YOU?

About this "local branch office"........why are you shipping docs elsewhere if the signings are at a "local branch office"? What is this "local branch office"? You are so full of baloney and your shill post is dismissed.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/17/10 7:29pm
Msg #323231

NSN agenda revealed! Thanks LKT

Don't expect any answers to any of yours or anyone's real questions. NSN has had many chances but has chosen not to answer them.

Obviously works for a SS company and is attempting to convince us "overpriced" "professionals" to start accepting low ball fees.

It's after 5pm, probably won't hear back until back at work tomorrow. LOL

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/17/10 7:35pm
Msg #323233

Re: NSN agenda revealed! Thanks LKT

"Obviously works for a SS company and is attempting to convince us "overpriced" "professionals" to start accepting low ball fees"

Wow...not like we haven't heard that before - I can think of at least 4 companies right off the top of my head that have had that discussion here - and I'm sure if I were to search the posts I'd find 3 or 4 more...

<<wondering what the a/k/a is>>...

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/17/10 8:58pm
Msg #323248

LOL Linda, Prob one that is about to go under because they

can't find $50-$75 notaries (not looking for professional SA's). LOL Last one out the company door - be sure to turn out the lights.

RE: <<wondering what the a/k/a is>>

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/17/10 8:08pm
Msg #323238

Re: Fees and profit and loss - LKT/CA

"You are viewed as a clueless hobbyist, with an employee mentality screwed out of a professional fee by your own ignorance and lack of business acumen. I now believe you do have an agenda - an agenda to convince the masses that the lowball fee of $75 covers expenses and renders a profit. "

Bravo!! Well put

Reply by Not_So_New on 2/17/10 9:17pm
Msg #323258

How stupid are you anyway?

Ever heard of Wells Fargo? Probably not since they only hire professionals.

Never, ever said I did in home closings for $75. Only that I make a profit on $75 closings. Read and comprehend before you respond. And that's not meant for you alone...to anyone reading if you think it applies to you then it does.

And to that gal in CA, I haven't been on for a while because I had two in home closings this evening. Both $XXX.00.

My only agenda was to enlighten not to influence. I really don't give a rat's $ss if anyone here loses or makes money. I only care that I do. And I do.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/17/10 9:27pm
Msg #323262

That's NOT what you said...you said...

"The fees I'm offered range from $50 to $100, with the obvious average being $75. I would assume that those $125-$175 closing fees are being offered to those signing agents who have been around longer than I and have built relationships. Seems reasonable. .....if I didn't accept the $75 closings then I wouldn't make enough money to pay my electric bill.

You did NOT say you make a $75 profit - you said you take $75 for closings and your costs are such that you profit from these fees....it's been pointed out that IF you do signings like the majority of us do, you CANNOT profit on $75 signings

Don't you go backpedaling now...it's not going to work....and I still wonder who you REALLY are.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/17/10 9:36pm
Msg #323264

Re: How stupid are you anyway?

Actually I specialized in Wells Fargo reverse mortgages. One title company that uses my signing service business did mainly WF reverse mortgages, but now also does BOA's.

If yoy want to know who is the stupid one on here I suggest you invest in a mirror.

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/17/10 10:49pm
Msg #323279

ROTFL......Exactly, Sylvia!

<<<If yoy want to know who is the stupid one on here I suggest you invest in a mirror.>>>

Bingo!!! You nailed it, Sylvia. NSN is clueless and can't keep his/her story straight.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/17/10 9:43pm
Msg #323266

NSN -- where can I sign up for your amazing class?

From your first post --

"The fees I'm offered range from $50 to $100, with the obvious average being $75. I would assume that those $125-$175 closing fees are being offered to those signing agents who have been around longer than I and have built relationships. Seems reasonable."

From your last post --

"I haven't been on for a while because I had two in home closings this evening. Both $XXX.00."


WOW! You must be one hell of a relationship builder to have your first $XXX.00! And 2 the first time! Do you teach a course or something? That's amazing!

Thought the "extra $50 bucks" wasn't worth your time to go out at night. After you are called out, NOW it is worth it to you? LOL

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/17/10 9:51pm
Msg #323268

Re: NSN -- where can I sign up for your amazing class?

From your previous post - msg # 323185

"Night driving, missed dinners, calling in favors for kids' rides to practices etc. sometimes is just not worth that extra $50."

You would be a much more persuasive poser if kept your story straight.

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/17/10 11:21pm
Msg #323285

Re: How stupid are you anyway?

<<<Ever heard of Wells Fargo? Probably not since they only hire professionals.>>>

Yeah, and I've also heard that banks have in-house Notaries that notarize their own generated documents - so why would they call YOU?...and for 30+ loans? Puh-leez!!

From your post 323185: "I do many $75 closings each month at a local branch office. Not a TC. I can drive there, conduct the closing and drop the package in less than an hour."

If you're conducting closings at a "local branch office" now identified as Wells Fargo by this post, where are you "dropping the package"?....back in the lap of the bank employee? "Drop a package" is terminology used when documents are shipped through UPS, FedEx or other shipper. So where would you ship these docs to?

You know what? I'm done. Calling out your lies only feeds your neurotic need to respond with more contradictions, lies and nonsense.

<<<My only agenda was to enlighten not to influence.>>>

ROTFL !!! Yeah, you enlightened us alright...LOL!!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/18/10 12:43am
Msg #323290

Re: How stupid are you anyway?

When you say "gal in CA" do you mean me? I said you were answering directly to anything I've said to you... and you haven't.

James is the one who called you out about the timing... I'm pretty sure that James would not appreciate being called a "gal".


You also said, "My only agenda was to enlighten not to influence."

Oh yeah... there's a lot of enlightenment going on, but not the kind you think.

You wanted to know how accepting $75 on a regular basis can result in a loss... I laid it all out for you. That's one of the posts you didn't respond to.

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/18/10 12:58am
Msg #323292

Re: How stupid are you anyway?

You been hanging out with too many sheep if you think I'm a "Gal". I suppose the average I.Q. level of the town you live in jumps about five points whenever you leave.

Reply by PA_Notary_II on 2/18/10 9:41am
Msg #323317

Wells Fargo in house closings......

I've done a ton of them locally.....12 miles to their office. $125.00 a pop every time. Yes they are easy and quick. Why should that make a difference in my fee?? My expertise, 35 years of experience and quality work have not diminished....why should my fee?

If you keep selling watermelons that you got wholesale for $2.00 at retail $1.50 you're gonna need a bigger truck!

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/18/10 10:03am
Msg #323321

Well said PA_Notary_II.....

"Yes they are easy and quick. Why should that make a difference in my fee?? My expertise, 35 years of experience and quality work have not diminished....why should my fee?"

EXACTLY!

Reply by TRG_wy on 2/17/10 8:01pm
Msg #323235

Not a PROFESSIONAL

You have missed the whole point altogether.

If you think you are worth $75 closings then you are not a professional - period.

I have many many years under my belt and am a true professional. My knowledge, time and experience alone is worth more than $75. A closing takes more than 45 minutes start to finish and does not just encompass printing and showing up.

I am a professional consultant and contract laborer as such. Just like an attorney, plumber, electrician, carpenter ..... I would never consider lowering my fees to those of a novice know nothing; to ask me to do so is an absolute insult!

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 2/17/10 10:10pm
Msg #323272

The deficiency in summarizing business related expenses displays an inadequate grasp of finance -- a knowledge that will unfortunately be acquired the hard way, given the unwillingness to learn from successful entrepreneurs.

Reply by jba/fl on 2/17/10 10:44pm
Msg #323277

***Thunderous Applause**** for Ronnie_WA n/m