Posted by Janetd/FL on 2/15/10 11:42am
Msg #322858

Help- Please don't attack


I have a closing scheduled for tomorrow the 16th , they title company is asking me to notarize for the 16th, but have the borrower date the 17th. All the docs are dated the 17th . Somehow this just doesn't feel right? It is an investment property. I know you cannot back date, but this is kind of straddling the fence.

I have been trying to look this up , but can't seem to find a clear answer.

Any advise?

Thank you in advance for all your help.

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/15/10 11:46am
Msg #322859

That's easy.....use the date you notarized it, attack aborted smile.

Reply by Janetd/FL on 2/15/10 11:51am
Msg #322861

Yes, I would date the date I notorize, but they have instructed the borrowers to date it for the next day. Thats what I am having a problem with.

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/15/10 12:03pm
Msg #322865

The doc contents are the TC's domain, the notary block is your domain. As long was their instructions do not conflict with your state's notary law then you're okay. The TC can instruct the borrow to do anything they want to with the docs - your only concern is the notary block and what date that has on it. The signing will take place on the 16th and the dates in the notary block will be for the 16th. If the TC is wrong about dating the docs on the 17th it's their fault not yours and there will be a re-sign and hopefully they will call you for the re-sign.

I had a signing where the docs were dated 4 days ahead. It was not a split signing. I asked the TC and was told to go ahead. I dated notary certs for the day of the signing, the whole thing was kicked back and it was a re-sign and I did get the resign and got another good fee.

Your concern is the notary block....

Reply by Janetd/FL on 2/15/10 12:09pm
Msg #322868

Thank you for the positive input, I feel much better .

Reply by desktopfull on 2/15/10 12:12pm
Msg #322869

Just put the correct date on your notarial certificate, but be prepared for underwriting or lawyers to kick it back for borrower's signing a postdated document and have it resigned. If I were the borrower I would make them fix the date, I would never sign a postdated document.

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/15/10 11:57am
Msg #322863

Okay...attack eminent...LOL

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/15/10 12:07pm
Msg #322867

Why is an attack eminent?

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/15/10 12:14pm
Msg #322870

pls see PM n/m

Reply by Doris_CO on 2/15/10 12:30pm
Msg #322874

Is this request in writing. If not, then ask them to send you the request in writing. Also, are you and the borrower available to do the signing on the 17th? If so, you might suggest that to the title company.

Reply by Janetd/FL on 2/15/10 12:37pm
Msg #322877

Thank you

Yes, it is in writing, I am printing all the emails and saving them with my order and it is also stacked on the top of the closing package from the title company. I suggested that we close on the 17th, but they want it to close on the 16th.

I am making sure I have a paper trail, so they can not come back and blame me , when it doesn't make it through underwriting.

Reply by CH2inCA on 2/15/10 12:59pm
Msg #322882

Not an attack

Not an attack, just an honest question. If they sign and date the docs and you notarize em. Are you then notarizing something YOU KNOW to be false?

Reply by Roger_OH on 2/15/10 1:33pm
Msg #322886

Re: Not an attack

Other than checking for blank spaces, the content of the docs and dates are not our concern.

Our responsibility is to notarize the signatures on the date they appeared before us.

Reply by PAW on 2/15/10 7:48pm
Msg #322933

Re: Thank you

>>> ... so they can not come back and blame me , when it doesn't make it through underwriting. <<<

What makes you think it won't make it through underwriting? There are many times that the effective date of the document is some future date. As long as YOU do your job correctly (notarizing with the current date), there shouldn't be a problem. If the signers are content with the date being the next day, so be it. As others have stated, we're not responsible to police the content of the document. As a notary, we're solely responsible for performing the notarial act and preparing, signing and sealing the certificate appropriate for the act.

(IIRC, wasn't there a lender that always dated their mortgages for the 1st of the following month?)

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 2/15/10 1:41pm
Msg #322888

We're not the date police, however ....

as far as I know, one cannot sign a document before it exists. If the DOT is dated Feb. 17, how can they sign it the 16th?

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/15/10 3:26pm
Msg #322900

Re: We're not the date police, however ....

"as far as I know, one cannot sign a document before it exists. If the DOT is dated Feb. 17, how can they sign it the 16th? "

???

The documents obviously exist - she's holding them in her hands. They do not TAKE EFFECT until the document date, but that's a different issue altogether. They can sign it using any date they want - think of it like postdating a check, in which the check cannot (hopefully, depending in the bank) be cashed until that date.

Her only concern is the date she's using for her notarization, and she was not asked to fudge that date so she's clear. That, and to keep a copy of the request so that she can show did it the way they wanted it done, just in case it gets kicked back by the lender for a re-sign.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/15/10 3:29pm
Msg #322901

Of course the document exists

I'm never quite sure of the point people are trying to make when I see this written, can somebody please explain it to me?

How can they sign it on the 16th? They put their pen on the paper and sign their name. How can the document exist the day before it's dated? Because somebody printed it out on a piece of paper. WHAT AM I MISSING HERE?

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/15/10 3:45pm
Msg #322905

Re: Of course the document exists

My point also, Cali... the dates on the document have nothing to do with whether they exist or not (except in a legal sense, since they won't take effect until that date). I can notarize a signature on a document before the effective date, on the effective date, or after the effective date - makes no difference to me, since my notarization will always show the actual date they appeared before me.

I have no idea where people get this idea either; I must be missing something, too.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/15/10 2:18pm
Msg #322891

Get written proof that CT asked the bo to date

the docs differently (like an email). This would be a measure to CYA for full payment and if a resign is needed the ability to charge for a full signing again. IMO.

I agree with the advice that your concern is the notary block. Always date that area the date you notarize only.

Good luck

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/15/10 2:20pm
Msg #322892

Sorry, Didn't read that you already did this. :-) n/m

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/15/10 3:33pm
Msg #322902

One other date that needs to be correct

apart from the notary block, is the Right to Cancel. That one specifically is stating that the borrower received the form on the date they're signing it, so the dates better be accurate.

Reply by John_NorCal on 2/15/10 3:39pm
Msg #322904

Re: One other date that needs to be correct. Not a problem

since this is an investment property.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/15/10 3:49pm
Msg #322906

D'oh! Missed that. n/m

Reply by CF on 2/15/10 4:04pm
Msg #322908

On this topic of the RTC who would REALLY be responsible for

the date change? The notary or the lender? Just asking for opinions and future reference as it should not apply with a 2nd or investment property.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/15/10 3:35pm
Msg #322903

Unless your state notary laws specifically prohibit this, there's nothing wrong with doing what they ask as long as you notarize using the current date.

The date on the documents really aren't your concern, they just indicates what date the documents take effect. What you're doing is showing what date the signers appeared before you to sign the documents. As long as you are not being asked to back date or future date YOUR part of it, you are not being asked to do anything illegal or shady. I'd keep a paper trail to show that you did exactly what they asked you to do, just in case it gets kicked back.

Of course, if it makes you uncomfortable, you can always refuse - that's your call.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/15/10 4:17pm
Msg #322909

One other consideration

Date signed and date notarized should be the same date...you can't notarize something they sign tomorrow....so if there's anything they're signing and dating, then IMO the date should be the same date you notarize.

Brings up again the question of the DOT/Security Instrument..."signed and sealed this ___ day of ..." etc., or "on this the ____ day of _____."

My .02 FWIW

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/15/10 4:28pm
Msg #322910

Re: One other consideration

"you can't notarize something they sign tomorrow"

But they're not signing tomorrow, they're signing today. Agan, PUTTING A DIFFERENT DATE ON THE PAGE DOES NOT CHANGE THE REALITY OF WHAT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENING! The notarization says that they appeared before you on such and such date. If that is the actual date they're standing in front of you, what is the problem?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/15/10 4:36pm
Msg #322912

What I see as the problem is

if they sign and date....means they signed it on that date - how do you notarize something signed tomorrow - yes they appeared before you today but according to the paper someone will have in front of them they signed tomorrow...the notarization is premature or it indicates the notary perhaps notarized a blank document.

Like I said, just a consideration - maybe overthinking....I'm not concerned with the date the documents are drawn or drafted...I couldn't care less about that; if title wants them to date everything tomorrow fine, it's on them. BUT if they're signing in front of me and I'm notarizing on the 16th then IMO that signature better be dated the 16th too.

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/15/10 4:44pm
Msg #322913

Re: What I see as the problem is

"I have a closing scheduled for tomorrow the 16th , they title company is asking me to notarize for the 16th, but have the borrower date the 17th."

Linda, you're correct....no matter how you read the above. it doesn't come out right.

Reply by CH2inCA on 2/15/10 5:00pm
Msg #322916

Re: What I see as the problem is

Exactly!!
The signature date and the date the documents are drawn are not necessarily the same. We are all about the signature!

FWIW-I don't think post dating a check is legal either. :0)

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/15/10 6:05pm
Msg #322921

Re: One other consideration

I agree with CaliNotary.....not sure about other states but the CA handbook only requires that our ack or jurat bears the date the person appears before us.......we are not responsible for ANY contents of a document, including dates. Document dates, including dates next to borrower's signatures are for the TC and their legal department to figure out. Do

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/15/10 6:06pm
Msg #322922

Re: One other consideration

Hit enter too fast. I was going to write: Don't analyze, just notarize.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/15/10 6:19pm
Msg #322925

Not analyzing at all..

If they sign..and alongside their signature is the date, for example, 2/17, in THEIR handwriting .... and my notarization is dated 2/16......THAT's what's raising my eyebrows...

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/15/10 6:23pm
Msg #322926

Now *I* hit enter too quick..:)

Notary is saying they appeared on the 16th...borrowers are saying they signed on the 17th - how does no one else see a problem with this?

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/15/10 7:09pm
Msg #322931

Because it ain't our problem

If they appear before you on the 16th, then they appear before you on the 16th. Just because something doesn't "seem" right to us doesn't mean there's actually anything wrong with it. Let the lender's lawyers worry about the borrowers having everything else dated on the 17th.

Reply by PAW on 2/15/10 7:56pm
Msg #322935

Yes it may be a problem, but ...

it isn't OUR problem. You do you job correctly, with the current date. Have the signers sign your journal with the current date. Then if someone has a problem with the dates not matching, they can work it out amongst themselves, since you have a record of the transaction stating the correct date that it took place.

There will also be a pretty significant paper trail (emails, confirmations, notary notes, etc.) that should clearly indicate that the signing was done on a certain date, regardless of what appears on the documents.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/15/10 10:07pm
Msg #322948

This could go on forever so I'll just leave it at I disagree

It IS our problem.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/15/10 10:07pm
Msg #322949

I'll add...IMO it's My problem on my signings...

that's me and my personal opinion..

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/16/10 6:00am
Msg #322965

Seems like this is a common thing on

split signings....signing before and after the date of the effective date of the documents. I respect your input, Linda, but not seeing the problem. Maybe I'm overlooking the obvious.

Reply by PAW on 2/16/10 7:34am
Msg #322971

Agree to disagree. n/m

Reply by MichiganAl on 2/15/10 4:57pm
Msg #322915

Too much overthinking

Notarize for the 16th, the rest is not your area of concern.

Anyone ever do a Nutter loan? They were usually dated for the end of the month regardless of the signing date.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 2/15/10 9:31pm
Msg #322944

Yikes!

It seems I have been operating in another universe than the rest of y'all when it comes to notarizing DOTs that are dated in the future - i.e. not the date they are signed or earlier. I have heard my whole notary life that one cannot sign a deed before it is dated (exists). Some real-life examples come to mind: the first time this happened to me I didn't notice the DOT was dated in the future. The lender rejected the signing, docs were redrawn and title got in trouble for sending me the docs early
Recently, I'm at the signing table, notice the DOT is dated in the future, call the TC, who calls the loan processer, who says go ahead and sign. A few days later I get a call from the TC brass, who tells me the loan processer is out of her mind - and docs are redrawn.
Two other examples: Keeping an eye out for this now, I noticed when printing docs that the DOT was dated in the future. I called the SS or TC, signing was immediately canceled.
I had the owner of a SS tell me it would my "fault" if I completed a signing with a DOT dated in the future. I said it wouldn't be "my" fault, it's the fault of the lender/TC for sending them out early and he said it would be my fault because I didn't check and nobody would pay me for doing such a bonehead thing. Also, he said no county recorder would accept a DOT notarized before it was dated.
So to all of you who had no idea what I was talking about - maybe this makes it clearer. But I guess this has never happened to any of you, which makes me wonder what I'm missing...? P.S. There is one SS that actually has printed on its job order to check the date of the Deed, and if it's not the same day as the signing or earlier - forgetaboutit....

Reply by CopperheadVA on 2/16/10 6:43am
Msg #322966

Those Wells Fargo mail-away no-cost refi's are always dated

for well into the future. Every one I've done has been like that. Go figure.

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/16/10 9:24am
Msg #322984

Re: Yikes!

Same here......had to go back out and sign on THAT date!

Reply by MichiganAl on 2/16/10 1:29pm
Msg #323006

Oh, the SS owner said so!

Most of us don't take a lot of stock in what a SS owner says. They'll say what they need to say to a) get the job finished by any means possible and b) avoid paying more than they have to pay.

I've worked with plenty of lenders who have docs pre-dated. Right or wrong, I do not know and I do not care. If they're good with it, I'm good with it. Anything else is beyond my scope. I'm not going to play attorney, title producer, or mortgage police.

Reply by Alz on 2/16/10 3:03pm
Msg #323027

And let the forum say "Amen"....lol n/m