Posted by Jessica Ward on 2/18/10 10:23am
Msg #323323

Question--signers who can't write

I had an instance the other day with an elderly woman who can't write in English, only in Hindi. She only had to sign the legals on a mortgage (not a borrower, but we're a community property state), and her English was good enough that she understood the transaction, her daughter read her the documents in my presence. Her signature perfectly matches her ID. I had no difficulty ascertaining willingness to sign, nor her identity as I had all kinds of ID for her. The simple thing was that she couldn't write the English alphabet.

I know that many companies want the signatures "exactly as written." But this is a challenge when people's signatures are in different languages. I asked her if she could copy the printed words next to her name, but she could not.

I was comfortable with the signature she provided as it matched all of her ID.

I'm curious how others would have handled the same situation--thoughts? I hope I did this one correctly.

Jessica

Reply by Lee/AR on 2/18/10 10:30am
Msg #323326

My take on this--whether anybody likes it or not--is simply that I can't 'tell you' what your signature 'ought to be/look like'. Your signature is your signature. Remember the weird symbol that 'the artist formerly known as Prince' used? There ya' go.

Reply by Jessica Ward on 2/18/10 10:32am
Msg #323328

Thanks--that's been my take too. I really don't like the idea of notarizing someone's signature when it does not look like their ID or my journal, though I know that the title companies would prefer to have a much tidier signature.

Reply by JandB on 2/18/10 10:33am
Msg #323330

I always do my level best to get a signature that matches but sometimes that is not possible. Many signatures are nothing more than a scrawl. If they were to spell out their name it would not be their true signature. If that is the case, I accept what they offer. I have called the title company from the table and explained the situation and been told to accept it. I have never had anything come back. I actually had this discussion with an atty at the SOS in PA and she reminded me that an "X" can be a legal signature if a person establishes it over a period of time. So...I try to get it but move on if I can't.

Reply by Les_CO on 2/18/10 10:39am
Msg #323333

I concur with all here.
Ask your local druggist if the signatures on most of his prescriptions can easily be interpreted to be the signing MD’s name.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/18/10 10:44am
Msg #323336

Re: Question--signers who can't write - Les

I once had a borrower who was a doctor. When he signed my journal I couldn't even read his signature and it didn't match his ID signature. I asked him to sign the docs the same way he signed his ID.
he said that every morning when he went to work at the hospital, he and the other doctors got together to see who could sign their name the most unreadable! (I am not sure that he was joking on that!!

Reply by Les_CO on 2/18/10 10:58am
Msg #323340

Re: Question--signers who can't write - Les

I believe it!
However in their defense most MD’s sign their names several hundred times a day, after a couple of years of this their at-one-time legible signature turns into a scrawl.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/18/10 10:41am
Msg #323334

I had one borrower who signed in Arabic. It wasn't even her native language. However the "signature" matched her ID. She told me after that she had been using the Arabic as her legal signature for around 20 years, and that was also how she signed the preliminary docs.
It didn't even translate to her name, but as it was her legal signature and matched her ID signature I notarized it. No problems.

Reply by Jessica Ward on 2/18/10 10:50am
Msg #323338

Thanks all! I'm breathing a big sigh of relief now. I've only twice before turned in docs with a foreign language signature on them, but both times Amharic (Ethiopian) which I can read sufficiently to know that the person actually wrote their name. For some reason, that didn't occur to me as the same situation, though I realize now that it is. Thanks all very much.

Reply by Joe/NYC on 2/18/10 10:57am
Msg #323339

Had a very similar case last night.

Woman could not read, write, or SEE clearly.

She was able to make an intial, but it wasn't even the initals of her name. She said that's how she signs documents.

Title company said to have her do it that way, and they will make a determination later if it is going to be accepted.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/18/10 11:13am
Msg #323344

Shouldn't that have been caught well before the

closing table? How was the lender satisfied that she could only make an initial on her application, and an initial that's not even hers??!!

If she couldn't see clearly, how could she see and read the docs she was signing??

Isn't this how we got into some of the trouble we're in now? This screams of "I didn't know what I was signing" later on down the line.

Ugh

Reply by Susan Fischer on 2/18/10 2:42pm
Msg #323386

Similar last year, the dear man had had a stroke, and

was unable to walk or talk anymore. Such a hard thing - he was a big, strong man left so dependent. Anyway, all his hand could remember were his two initials. He could hear just fine, and when he raised his eyebrows, I would ask if he had a question. He'd look at his beautiful silver-haired wife of 50 years, and she would ask me his question.

The twinkle in their eyes almost sparked when they met, and they knew, to the depths of their souls, each other's heart.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 2/18/10 6:54pm
Msg #323425

Wouldn't that be considered a "signature by mark"? n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 2/18/10 8:58pm
Msg #323437

Thet are referring to those who cannot write, ie,

Christopher Reeves, paralyzed.

In FL we can sign through/by direction. (p. 39, For a person with a disability who directs another to sign) using 2 witnesses. "You may notarize this signature but you should indicate the unusual circumstances in the notarial certificate." Guidelines for language follow, for jurat and Ack.

So, the notary signs the BO's name at the BO's direction, 2 witnesses observe and sign, then the notary notarizes.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 2/18/10 10:09pm
Msg #323449

Re: Thet are referring to those who cannot write, ie,

I was responding to the post by Joe/NYC regarding his signer who used an initial (but not her own) to sign. I would consider that to be a signature by mark.

I have performed a signature by direction. It was a few years ago and we did have two witnesses. In that respect it is very similar to a signature by mark since two witnesses are required for that also.

Reply by jba/fl on 2/19/10 6:38am
Msg #323457

My response was without glasses - mark it is Teresa!

I do think that our law is unusual though helpful. Makes me wish more would use that option. Thinking of stroke victims who are just so intensely determined, taking huge gobs of time. Then, my very next thought after this churlish statement is that in a couple of years that person could possibly look back with pride and really see their accomplishment and victory over such a bad time period in their life.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 2/18/10 11:08am
Msg #323343

IMO, the mantra of "sign as typed" is urban legend

with no basis in law, just as "If name is Paticia I Green, you need to
initial as PIG. Not legal advice, yada yada.
Your signature is your signature and your method of initialing is whatever it is.
That said, at the beginning of a signing I tell them to "Sign as typed and initial with
all initials"
If wierd signature, I maight ask "Are you signing as John j Jones?". expecting a
positive response.
The only exception is if name is John J Jones and they sign as J James Jones I tell them
that there is a fair chance that I might be back for a re sign. That usually does the trick.
I have NEVER had a kickback for "improper signature (or initial)" in about 20,000 signings.
Illinois does not require that signature match ID, but that is one additional step that I use in the verification of identity process.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/18/10 12:07pm
Msg #323355

Re: IMO, the mantra of "sign as typed" is urban legend

I feel the same way. I get really annoyed at compnaies who insist that things be signed "as printed" -- and so do borrowers when they see those instructions. One guy even said, "But that wouldn't by my regular signature, and how could I defend myself against fraud if there are several versions of my signature out there? Screw them, this is my legal signature, and that's what they're going to get."

I didn't argue, as I actually agreed with him. I sent the package as it was, didn't say a word about it...it it recorded just fine.

I have three different signatures that I use. One I only use for notarizing. One is a shorter version that I use for signing checks and contracts... the one I consider my "real" signature. Then I have my initials. I sign my initials in a specific way. Nobody is going to tell me how to sign my name, because then it wouldn't be authentic.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 2/18/10 3:42pm
Msg #323387

Furthermore, I believe that in many states, if one is..

competent, but physically incapable of writing (eg paralized), they can direct
someone in their presnce to sign a document on their behalf.
Not the same as a POA.
Notorial laws vary as to form of acknowledgement, but it is if they are signing personally.
Not legal advice, yada yada

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/18/10 4:08pm
Msg #323395

Re: Furthermore, I believe that in many states, if one is..

Right. Called "signature by mark" in California. I've only had to use it once for a person with some type of neurological disorder, possibly cerebral palsy. His mind was fine, but he had great difficulty controlling his hands.

I completely agree with both Bob and Marian on this. I like the context of "urban legend" for this issue. This is one of the largest transactions most people participate in in their lives. To instruct them to sign their name completely differently than they do on any other transaction just doesn't make sense to me. However, I'm not an attorney and I don't claim to have an understanding of all the legal ramifications.

The only time I've ever had to go back to do a re-sign for signatures was for a single woman with very neat handwriting who insisted that she didn't need to include her middle initial. Fortunately, I wrote out a note stating that she had been advised to sign her name as written and that if she didn't, it could affect the funding date of her loan (I don't remember exactly as it was a long time ago, but something to that effect) and I had her sign it. We weren't able to reach either my client or the LO at the table but I had a message waiting for them when they got in the next morning. I was back out there the next day with a new set of documents (and a new fee!) She was duly chagrined and signed with her middle initial included.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 2/18/10 4:33pm
Msg #323398

"signature by mark" in California." NOT questioning your

knowledge of CA law, but as I understand it. signature by mark
is , I believe, when someone can just make a symbol (eg: X )
What I was talking about was someone who is phyically incapable of writing at all.
(Think Christopher Reeves) I was referring to having the "signer" direct another person
to sign his name on their behalf while present and at the "signer's" specific direction.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/18/10 5:57pm
Msg #323415

Oops. Missed that part. You're right, of course! n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/18/10 6:00pm
Msg #323417

Just re-read your post.

You are right about signature by mark not applying - per California law - but I don't think there's anything HERE that would allow someone else to sign on their behalf, even in their presence without a POA. I'd have to check further, but gotta run now.

Reply by Notary Solutions LLC on 2/18/10 4:37pm
Msg #323399

Re: How about a backwards signature

I forget her name now, but let's say it was Betty Smith. She started on the right side of signature line working left in SCRIPT!: htimS ytteB
Her B & S faced left...Try it...it's really hard to do!

Reply by MW/VA on 2/18/10 4:02pm
Msg #323393

Well said, Bob. IMO this is the reality of the situation. n/m