Posted by JanetK_CA on 2/27/10 4:24am
Msg #324477

What do you make of this...?!

I have a signing Saturday afternoon with a small loan from a credit union against a manufactured home. One of the documents (actually, there are two of them) is a Power of Attorney stating that the undersigned "do authorize and irrevocably appoint", followed by a company name and address "and/or" a dept/division, etc. ending with "and/or any employee, officer, or agent of any such entity, including:..." followed by some blank lines with "(Attorney-in-Fact)" written under it. Below that it says:

"my (our) true and lawful Attorney-in-Fact to sign in the name, place and stead of the undersigned, any certificate of the title covering the Home described above in whatever manner necessary to effect the transfer of such Home title, application for duplicate of such Home title, or application of a new certificate of title of said Home, the Attorney may deem fit and proper, hereby ratifying and confirming whatever action said Attorney shall or may stake by virtue thereof on the premises. The authority granted by this Power of Attorney includes but is not limited to, allowing the Attorney-in-Fact to record a lien on the Home in favor of [name of CU] (at such address as the Attorney-in-Fact may designate)."

I'll admit I'm more than a bit bleary eyed at the moment, but does this actually say what I think it says??? Naturally, I'm going to try to reach my client (whom I've never worked for before) in the morning, but I don't have her cell phone and probably won't be able to reach her.

I don't think I've ever seen anything like this. It may be moot because I can't see myself notarizing this with it open ended (with blank lines!) as to who can act as the Attorney-in-Fact. But.... What IS up with this?!!!!!

I should probably add that this has something to do with the CA Dept. of Housing and Community Development, so it might be part of some special program by the state. And, of course, the borrower hasn't returned my call. Should be an interesting day!

(Geez... I hope this makes sense! I'm shuttin' down!)

Reply by Grammyzoom on 2/27/10 5:48am
Msg #324478

In the past 4 or 5 months I have seen this open Power of Attorney 3 times and it took reading it over a couple of times for me to realize that this is a form wherein the borrower can actually appoint an Attorney in Fact and if left blank could be a very powerful and harmful document.

All three times we send the document back unsigned, not notarized and blank. Be really careful and do not assume that this form is some sort of Compliance Agreement.

By the way, none of these documents were California initiated. And Good For You for taking the time to read the form!

Reply by Laura_V on 2/27/10 10:36am
Msg #324511

Yeppers, GZ, it's evil.

I've saw those around 4 years ago when things started to get ugly even on A loans.

Good thing I'm not allowed to notarize a doc with any blank lines here in WA. No one wanted to sign them anyway. WA ppl are skeptical: they understood what was up so it was never a problem for us. I just handed them the paper and told them I would do some notary chores while they read it.

I'm so relieved I don't see awful loans anymore. One nice and smart Calif notary told me via email a few years ago that when she does signings where the buyers and the sellers meet at a closing and the buyers were only selling to avoid foreclosure she would go sit in her car and cry after the signing. That's how bad she felt for the sellers.

I did see a good loan with horrific TC nonsense fees on it a month or so ago. Borrower was wealthy, happy with loan terms and vacation house price, and decided at end of appt he didn't care so he signed the HUD as it was.

Reply by Laura_V on 2/27/10 10:49am
Msg #324517

btw - I saw forms with regular stick-built houses involved n/m

Reply by Stamper_WI on 2/27/10 7:19am
Msg #324483

My take is that mobile homes are personal property, not real estate. It gives the lender the power to apply for a new title (much like a car title) in their name should they need to. Land is transfered by a deed. So if they own the land with a mobile home on it, there are 2 instrumens of conveyance. One for the mobile home and one for the land.
If the mobile home sits on a permanent foundation on the land, in WI, the mobile home title is not necessarily needed. In other words if you can not longe hitch up to the home and tow it away.

Reply by Grammyzoom on 2/27/10 8:23am
Msg #324490

That makes sense but the POA's that we had in the package were for refi's on real property.

????

Reply by Stamper_WI on 2/27/10 8:45am
Msg #324495

They must have deterimined the mobil home was movaeable or they are covering their bases.

Reply by EastTxNotary on 2/27/10 10:10am
Msg #324507

I agree with this. My experience has been that a form similar to this is included in the closing docs so that once the home is actually placed on the land, the personal property title to the mobile home will be sent in to the state so that it can be converted to real property status.

Reply by Laura_V on 2/27/10 10:48am
Msg #324515

It can go either way in WA, Stamper

I totally get your thinking.

In WA, if you have a mobile home you can add it to the deed for the property via inspection by county official, etc.

People who live year round in a single or double wide often or even usually do this. I've never seen a mobile home on a campground do it, even if the home was there for years.

They have some campgrounds up the mountain here where each lot is individually owned, like a condo except its dirt. There's usually basketball courts, community building, etc. So the owners pay modest HOA-type fees. The mobile homes I've seen at one place are all RVs. Complex completely fenced in for kids' safety.

So a couple with young kids will buy a dirt+RV from a family whose kids are grown and flown. In 15 years or so, the family sells the dirt+RV to a young family. And so on. Sale prices I saw were around $2K - $4K. Pretty nice for little place half way up a mountain and just a couple of hours away from downtown Vancouver.


Now you know WA mobile home trivia. Oh joy.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/27/10 9:41am
Msg #324501

I got run completely out of an office because

I balked at this. I think it is a dangerous instrument because of the open, blank lines.

To me it seems like they need it in case they foreclose upon it and need to move it or something of that nature.

When I was faced with that there were three of them to complete.

I was in a mobile home sales place and they were very mean and threatening to me.

I left.

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/27/10 9:49am
Msg #324505

Threathening? Where are they? I'LL........

Hey Brenda, I bet they didn't come after you.......LOL

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/27/10 10:06am
Msg #324506

Hey James! They were just a bunch

smarmy, trashing, unethical sales people -- made me want to spit up. They had been doing it that way for years, you know...but the facts were that they had been in trouble for their dealings...hence the reason an outside notary had to be hired. Asses!

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/27/10 10:14am
Msg #324508

Re: Hey James! They were just a bunch

Glad we got you protecting the home front in Texas..

Reply by Jim/AL on 2/27/10 10:44am
Msg #324514

I think that about every response in this thread is UPL....

why are we reading, ciphering and deciding what is being signed by someone else?

If the signer questions it, then they should decide, not us.

KISS

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/27/10 10:56am
Msg #324520

Re: I think that about every response in this thread is UPL....

Jim what did I say that was UPL?

Reply by Jim/AL on 2/27/10 12:12pm
Msg #324528

nothing James, I said "about every response." n/m

Reply by Stamper_WI on 2/27/10 4:12pm
Msg #324560

Re: nothing James, I said "about every response."

I see nothing wrong with the discussion. Its a curriosity. I don't see anyone advising anyone let alone the borrower.
There are a lot of things I see in packages that bring questions to my mind and I come home and try to figure out what they were.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/27/10 11:42am
Msg #324523

I notarize documents all the time that make me personally uncomfortable.... but it's not my call. Our state law is very specific about not refusing a notarization, especially as independent notaries.

The only thing I can do refuse of the document isn't complete... so if they are leaving blank lines... forget about it.

I keep a small file of pre-printed bits of the handbook or state code to give to people when I refuse a notarization. That way, they have something tangible and I'm deflecting the blame on the state's rules rather than myself. It's basically a short note, with my contact information that says I'm sorry that I can't notarize their signature because...."

I've found them to be VERY helpful and at least they walk away with something that they can follow-up with.... because the general public doesn't always understand "the big deal".

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/27/10 12:09pm
Msg #324527

Right on Marian!
Contents of document are not our responsibility - except to make sure that it is complete.
It is up to the signer to understand the document they are signing not ours. If they don't understand it they can call the lender for clarification before signing.

Reply by Laura_V on 2/27/10 12:36pm
Msg #324530

So smart! "I keep a small file of pre-printed bits of t..."

"I keep a small file of pre-printed bits of the handbook or state code to give to people when I refuse a notarization. "

That is so super smart, Marian!



Ppl really have no idea what notaries can and cannot do.

But somehow the client is always smarter than us in HIS/HER own mind. It's when they voice that "fact" to me that cracks me up so much I have to grip my lips together - hard.

Reply by SOCAL/CA on 2/27/10 1:07pm
Msg #324537

Folks; listen to Marian and Sylvia. n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/27/10 1:01pm
Msg #324535

Got my answer

I was able to talk to the EO this morning and was told that there is no problem with putting "NA" in the blank lines. The rest is up to the borrower, of course, but I do like to have some idea - especially when dealing with a POA! We also have the EO's cell number in case there are any questions, so I don't have to do too much tap dancing to avoid answering questions about this document.

What she said is very close to what StamperWI was talking about. This supposedly has to do only with getting the title transferred or getting a copy of the certificate - which can take months. Also, I finally heard back from the BO and she referred to her "coach", so it is possible that this is a movable manufactured home.

It's funny how things tend to make a little more sense in the light of day... I probably shouldn't post in the wee, wee hours, but it sure is nice to get the feedback from the gang here! And if I hadn't been able to reach my client, I would have felt a little squeamish about this doc. When I first looked at it, my thought was that there was no way I would ever sign a POA like that. But if I've ever dealt with a manufactured home, it was a very long time ago, and I'd bet the owner is more familiar with title issues specific to manufactured homes. I suspect I would have handled it exactly the same way regardless, but even though the content is not our concern, I think it would have bothered me to be part of something that on the surface looked like someone was signing over total control of their property.

Always nice to learn something new.... Thanks for all your comments!

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/27/10 9:28pm
Msg #324583

<<<.....CA Dept. of Housing and Community Development, so it might be part of some special program by the state.>>>

CA Dept. of H & CD registers and licenses mobile homes....nothing special.

Someone else mentioned mobile/manufactured homes being personal property, not real property. In California, if they are semi-attached (still movable/mobile) they are personal property. Upon meeting certain requirements (building permit, permanent foundation, certificate of occupancy) they become real property, after which they are registered with the county recorder and taxed as real property.