Posted by BrendaTx on 2/5/10 8:18pm
Msg #321535

Would like input from both vet and inexperienced notaries

This is a personal request . . . a favor.

I am teaching a notary refresher course in March in Houston. I tend to forget the "obvious" situations that notaries deal with.

I have a course outline, of course, but nothing is more boring than the expected. I would like to have anecdotal ammunition to liven things up. (Can a notary course be lively!!?)

I would be very thankful and forever grateful if you would post the "burning" questions in your mind (if there is such a thing) about being a regular, everyday notary--not a signing agent...or issues which you think notaries need addressed.

You're out there, in the trenches...what is an issue you believe that notaries need to know more about?

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/5/10 8:30pm
Msg #321536

From me....working as a regular, servicing the public notary my question would be,..."for what reason would you use to charge someone who needs the help you can provide?" If you are committed to serving the public and have an office, that's easy. How about if you're mobile, how much, based on what. I'm sure you will get a variety of answers that will allow you to debate to no end! IMO

Reply by JulieD/KS on 2/5/10 8:33pm
Msg #321538

What I see from Kansas notaries (where no notarial education is required) is how many of them do incomplete notarizations. They don't put in the venue (nor do they correct an incorrect venue). They fail to put in the date.....I even had one recently fail to SIGN it.
So...however they have to do it, be sure the notarization is complete. For me...and as easy as it is to 'get lost' in documents when there is a stack....I count the components to verify each notarization is complete (1 = venue; 2 = Date; 3 = name of person being notarized; 4 = my signature with my name printed underneath and 5 = notary stamp w/expiration date printed in. I count to five on each notarized page...and am SO glad I do. It's easy to miss a component.

I think the issue of back-dating and also pre-dating is important to cover. Use the example of what if you date it and notarize it for tomorrow...and the people are in a car accident and die tonight. How can you explain notarizing them after they are dead?

Those are the two things that i can think of.
Julie

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/5/10 8:36pm
Msg #321539

These comments are going to be so helpful.

You guys never let me down!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/5/10 9:09pm
Msg #321542

I think one major discussion had here on this board

is how to comply with your state's ID requirements, especially how to determine if the client qualifies for the use of Credible Witnesses. I think the CW is a procedure often abused.

Also, don't let ANYONE, no matter who they are, bully you, as a notary, into doing something illegal or doing your job wrong...know your laws and handbook COLD.

Just a couple thoughts.

Reply by Lee/AR on 2/5/10 9:21pm
Msg #321545

Re: I think one major discussion had here on this board

The fact that employERS often put pressure on a notary employee to 'skip the red tape & just stamp it'. And the fact that the notary 'owns' the stamp, even if the employer paid for it.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/5/10 9:25pm
Msg #321547

Re: I think one major discussion had here on this board

I completely agree with Linda on all points. People who are trying to pull a fast one are the most likely to get belligerent, thinking that a good offense can be the best defense - just to see if they can get you to back down.

In a related vein, why it's so important that the name on the ID support what is in the document, and to be careful about things like "Sr." and "Jr.", etc. I know others have similar anecdotes, but I remember sitting with a couple where the husband said he married a woman with the same name as his sister - and they were constantly getting mixed up! I've heard other tales from people before with family members with similar names - and at least one where a person's credit was badly messed up because of it. (Wish I could remember the details!) I've read that fraud most often happens between family members. It's not inconceivable, for example, for a grandson who has the same name as his father and grandfather, to try to pull a fast one and change title on grandpa's property or try to take a loan out on it, etc. (This is where things like nicknames or middle initials can get a little hairy...)

I think any anecdote about the potential consequences of in improperly done notarization would be useful.

Reply by Laura_V on 2/6/10 9:11am
Msg #321588

W/ increasing fraud, notaries are the border guards to....

W/ increasing fraud, notaries are the border guards to paperwork.

If all the notaries were as well educated in notary regs and had as strong a backbone as Linda H, this disaster called "everyone dull but nice in the US goes into foreclosure" could not have happened.

So tell your students to take themselves frickin seriously.

Tell them a story you read here about a notary making certain the little old lady in the hospital was truly signing her POA of her own free will. Turned out her daughter was coercing the heck out of her. Notary went out "for something she forgot" (I think) and called the cops.

Super good on that wonderful notary.



Yeppers, I get worked up about this one - LOL.

Reply by EastTxNotary on 2/5/10 9:25pm
Msg #321546

Brenda, in our general notary work at the store, we see a LOT of situations where the customer has been told just to get us to "sign and stamp". Banks, for the most part, are no longer willing to notarize many documents. I would also address notarizing wills...we've been seeing SO many people printing up wills from the internet and wanting those notarized. "Danger Will Robinson!"

Reply by John/CT on 2/5/10 10:04pm
Msg #321548

Re: Input from vet notaries

Making sure the signature matches the printed name. I've lost count of the number of times James J. Doe (for example) signed his name as JD Doe. When the discrepancy was pointed out, the signer said: "Well, I'm known as James J. Doe, but JD Doe is my legal signature." Nope, you've gotta' go back and sign exactly. Make 'em do it ... no matter how much they whine and complain. Also, sometimes their scrawl is indescribable. As long as it matches the signature on their picture ID, that's where an Name/Signature Affidavit comes in.

Reply by Alice/MD on 2/5/10 10:47pm
Msg #321552

Telling family members that "no can do". It seem so hard for family members to understand that you can't be of service to them.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/5/10 11:19pm
Msg #321555

They need to know what they can and cannot (or should not) do, so you might want to touch on how to avoid getting caught up in scams. You want anecdotal? The whole 21st Century loan modification debacle is a good example, as is the "notary protest" stuff that rears its head every so often here. A couple of stories like that ought to wake them up...

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 2/6/10 12:06am
Msg #321563

I have been teaching notary classes in CA for over 6 years

Brenda
Call me or email me and I will definitely help you!

Texas & CA don't have the same notary laws; but you already know Texas laws and I can really help you teach this class.


951-522-4919

Reply by Laura_V on 2/6/10 9:13am
Msg #321589

very generous of you, Joan. n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 2/5/10 11:59pm
Msg #321559

Reading people. Listening carefully. Asking pertinent

questions, evaluating the essence of the situation, and coming to a logical decision as to what help a notary can be.

For instance, starting close to home, a family member needs something notarized. Knowing one's state laws like the alphabet will automatically eliminate some situations, as where the notary is somehow associated with the transaction. How about if a sister were to notarize the signature of her brother for a reason totally unassociated with the notary? Who better to identify the signer?

How about a notary, who is an activist for some cause, notarizing the signatories of some petition promoting that cause? Recuse or stamp?

A good start may be just reading and understanding the Oath of the Commission. How many times do we hear "do a notary" and "I'm a licensed notary"? The nomenclature of the job is essential, because there are many words with much weight - with much responsibility.

A brief history of the Notary Public in civilized society may set the stage for the importance of learning not only the language of the commission, but the also import of the Duty with which the Notary Public is charged; foundations for moving on to various scenarios for discussion which exemplify the common challenges Notaries face.

Some dry stuff, to be sure, plus lots of other cool suggestions - I bet you find a way to slip in good humor often enough to bring it all home, Brenda.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/6/10 12:43am
Msg #321568

Thanks for all your input!

I've gotten a lot of good ideas from you guys. Thank you.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/6/10 1:00am
Msg #321569

Re: Would like input from both vet and inexperienced notarie

What should a notary do if they, the notary, make a mistake filling out the form? How should they correct it? If they are a Notary Public but don't do it full time, they may make more mistakes than someone that does it daily.

Reminding them that just because a family member does not have the same last name does not mean that they can notarize the document. (in TX anyway)

When I sold life insurance, we also a used a similar "back date -- predate" example in training. All the ideas already are great. Good luck with the class!

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/6/10 3:53pm
Msg #321681

Re: Would like input from both vet and inexperienced notarie

"Reminding them that just because a family member does not have the same last name does not mean that they can notarize the document.”

CORRECTION: I meant to state that if the notary has a financial interest in the transaction, they are unable to notarize it. Sometimes, I hear of stories and have even been asked myself, to "...just stamp it, we don't have the same last name, no one will know."

I was up too late and didn't have enough coffee.

Thanks again, Brenda for letting me know that I left that out

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 2/6/10 4:40am
Msg #321573

If I could teach ONE thing, it would be ...

to impress upon notaries to take their questions FIRST to the source - read, study & become confidently familiar with their state's actual notarial STATUTES. Law is NOT that difficult to understand, you just have to take it word-by-word and AT its word.

I will never understand why notaries will take their questions first to a public forum, or 'my friend who's a [insert some profession who might've once seen a notarization]'.

The statutes are laws, and by definition will require some interpretation - which requires (class?) an ATTY. But ...if you go slow, read each sentence like you're eating a delicacy, you will usually find a definitive answer.

What would you rather say to a judge - "Well, your Honor, I asked my neighbor's cousin, who used to be married to someone who 'did notaries' at the bank ...." OR "Your Honor, the statute clearly says "THIS"."

Reply by Julie/MI on 2/6/10 6:49am
Msg #321579

One thing: Don't suffer from Chicken Little Syndrome

I have to reckon that over 99% of the transactions ARE legitimate and don't read notary message boards and look for trouble. Don't assume everyone is conspiring to commit fraud. Don't get a big head over being a notary public.

Follow your state's laws and if you live in Michigan, don't start finger printing because your cousin the CA notary does it in her state for certain documents.

If you want to do international adoptions, be advised your many counties insist that the notary's commission cannot expire within one or two years of the signing date of the documents. I renew next year and I do a ton of international adoptions and I cannot do them this year....I'm getting DH commissioned to handle these requests....

That was more than one, sorry I bet your class would be fun, Brenda

Reply by Laura_V on 2/6/10 10:13am
Msg #321608

Aren't those fun, Julie?

Those foreign baby adoptions were my fav in my old town. (No call for it here - only 1 part time doctor in town.)

The soon-to-be parents were so happy. They were at the end of a 1.5 to 2 year process. Some had worked with more than one agency so they had been trying to get a child for years.

The notary comes near the end of the adoption process. Some of my clients left the following week - or in one case the next day - for Russia, Guatemala, west Africa, China, wherever to bring home the baby or children.

1 huge hearted cpl wanted 2 sisters so as not to break up what was left of the tiny family. They showed me pics. Those little girls looked like Russian nesting dolls - absolutely adorable.

Reply by jba/fl on 2/6/10 8:57am
Msg #321586

Re: If I could teach ONE thing, it would be ...

Renee's reminder to go to the source is the BEST. Not a friend, not a neighbor, not a forum, not another organization who has stuff to sell, but the law or one's own state handbook.
It alone should be able to settle most disputes and solve most delimmas

Reply by CopperheadVA on 2/6/10 7:45am
Msg #321580

Here are my suggestions for the things most confusing for new notaries:

(And of course I already know the answers!)

1) What is the venue? Is it where you filed your commission or where the notarization is taking place?

2) What is the difference between an acknowledgment and a jurat?

3) What do you do if there is no notarial wording on the doc, but someone is asking you to notarize their signature on it?

4) Tell them about backdating requests and how to handle them.

5) Impress upon them that you cannot notarize the signature of a person who is not appearing before you. I recently had a woman who brought to me a document that her husband had signed. She had his ID to show me. She really had no idea that I could not notarize in that situation. My neighbor did the same thing, except she didn't have her husband's ID with her! LOL!

5) What should you do if someone brings you a document for notarization but they have already signed it?


Here in VA we have *zero* education requirements, and the handbook does not always spell things out clearly. The SOC is useless to try and get questions answered.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 2/6/10 7:47am
Msg #321581

Oops! I have two #5's! Meant to label it #6! n/m

Reply by PAW on 2/6/10 8:14am
Msg #321584

When performing general notary work, it is of utmost importance to clearly have an understanding of what is being asked. All too often, a notary is called and asked, "I was told I need to have this document notarized. How late are you open?" Then come to find out, the caller has a whole set of estate planning and healthcare documents that their mother or father needs to sign. Engage the caller in a Q&A session so you, the notary, have a definite understanding of the task at hand. Remember, the caller doesn't know what needs to be done in most cases. They are seeking professional assistance and looking to you, the notary, for guidance. (Just be careful of the over zealousness of some notaries in offering legal advice. Don't offer legal advice, except to contact an attorney on any and all legal matters.)

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/6/10 9:32am
Msg #321592

..."a Q&A session so you, the notary, have a definite understanding of the task at hand...." Yes indeed. I got a call from a young man telling me his mom was sick and needed some Docs notarized so I said ok, I'll wait for you. When he arrived I asked where was his mom? He served me a subpoena from US Certified Signers.

Reply by Laura_V on 2/6/10 9:46am
Msg #321596

Holey moley! n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 2/6/10 9:47am
Msg #321597

Just goes to prove: buyers are liars! ROFL

Sorry it was you James, but I really can't stop laughing and hope that you will one day as well, if not already. Deception! OMG

Reply by Laura_V on 2/6/10 9:32am
Msg #321591

Hazardous substances

One of the title companies I work for has a document in every package entitled “Hazardous Substance Statement.” The gist of it is that if the borrower later discovers asbestos, lead in the paint, or some similar problem, title insurance doesn’t cover it.”

I was at the home of a very nice couple who had been married for 27 years. When this notice appeared for signing, I began my usual brief explanation. The wife interrupted me:

“Hazardous substances. I know what this means: my husband’s socks!”

Reply by Laura_V on 2/6/10 9:49am
Msg #321598

btw - that story is 5 years old n/m

Reply by Laura_V on 2/6/10 9:33am
Msg #321593

Heights

It was the first day of snow that winter. I received a call from an international shipping line. They wanted me to drive to a port near the Canadian border. The captain needed to have a statement notarized but did not have a visa to enable him to step onto land. Since the freighter was within the three-mile limit, I could board the ship and notarize his signatures.

I am a spoiled West Coast native, so I was quite cold as I climbed the gangplank to the ship wearing my warmest coat. (I am afraid of heights, so I always discover myself referring to the loose ramp to a ship a gangplank.) The ship was 20’ from the dock. Water was at least 40’ below me. I stupidly looked down and calculated how long it would take me to swim through that ice cold water to reach the snowy shore. The pier extended far out into the water. I would need to shed my coat for swimming. I liked that coat – I would miss it.

The crew was very gracious and insisted on carrying my briefcase. We didn’t speak the same language but courtesy needs no words. Thank goodness for their help – I needed both gloved hands to grip the rope-rails tightly. Once on board, I was politely led up several floors to the Captain’s Quarters. Doors were opened for me – I felt like Notary Queen.

The captain was exotically dark skinned and enormously sized. He had courteous manners and spoke perfect English. Mysteriously common to huge men, he had the tiniest coffee table for us to conduct our work upon. As he was gathering the paperwork, I said that I had not previously been to this particular port and that the scenery was beautiful. He agreed and said he especially like it because the weather was so warm. I then noticed that he and all his crew were wearing short-sleeved knit shirts. (Where in the world had they sailed, I wondered.)

Business pleasantly concluded, I was given a polite escort down several levels of stairs and off the ship.

As I was signing the log at the security office on land, the officer asked me how things went. I said everything went fine and that I was treated very well. The only problem was mine: I hated heights and was terrified as I walked the gangplank.

The young brat laughed at me! He said I was lucky. The gangway was usually placed so it led directly from the pier to the level of the captain’s office. He pointed at the gigantic freighter through the office window and said this meant an additional height of 30 degrees at a far steeper angle.

I fiercely gripped the countertop and lowered my head to avoid fainting.

Reply by Laura_V on 2/6/10 9:44am
Msg #321595

Nudist resort

Remember about 5 years ago when a NSA posted here (i think) about getting a signing gig in a resort?

He said Hot D@amn cuz who doesn't like sitting in a luxurious resort restaurant for a signing?

Turned out to be a nudist camp! Jiggling all over the place!

I thought that was the funniest NSA story I ever read.

Once in a blue moon I'll mention it to a client and we both totally crack up.

Reply by Jim/AL on 2/6/10 10:04am
Msg #321601

Where does a Nudist keep their ID? n/m

Reply by Laura_V on 2/6/10 10:57am
Msg #321620

I am NOT going there! n/m

Reply by Laura_V on 2/6/10 9:59am
Msg #321599

nutrition

I accepted a notary assignment hours away to help a favorite client. At the end of the signing, the woman gave me a plastic grocery bag. “You have a long drive and it is past dinnertime. You need this.”

The bag had everything a growing girl needs: diet Coke, grapes, an oatmeal cookie, and pretzel squares filled with peanut butter. I honestly told her I thought she was sweet and very kind to give me this gift.

I hate peanut butter so that nice lady made my pug dog very happy for several days.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/6/10 10:07am
Msg #321605

All very good ideas!

This particular course is a refresher for the notary/employee in a specific type of corporate environment...but of course, the notary who is a notary at work may also use their commission in their off hours so this will be what your comments will assist in developing.

Learning (for me) is much easier when the material "makes sense" and does not have to be memorized. There is no test to be given, other than self-assessment. So, I do not have to "teach" so that I can "guarantee" the passing of a test such as some may have to do.

I have the course material, but the other ideas you have provided will re-shape dry memorizing to become sense-making information. Their experience will not necessarily be notarizing loan documents. Hashing it out here among notaries is helpful!

Reply by MW/VA on 2/6/10 10:29am
Msg #321615

You might want to cover requests for notarization of Wills & POA's, Brenda.
This is a common issue in my general notary work.

Reply by Laura_V on 2/6/10 10:58am
Msg #321621

Heck yeah! In WA the witness regs are very tricky. n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/6/10 4:52pm
Msg #321693

Re: Heck yeah! In WA the witness regs are very tricky.

In Texas the wills are self-proving. (Proof by Witness certificate for the notary to prove the witness attendance.) Probably what you mean about Wa. The witnesses swear that they see the signer sign in their presence and in the presence of the notary. The signer swears that they signed in the presence of the witnesses. IF a notary does this they need to read the signer's affidavit (I think?) and the witnesses' Proofs (a Tx statutory form) aloud to make sure the signer and witnesses hear it and are agreeing to it. The testator/trix signs and swears they signed in front of the witnesses.

(Self-proving: Lawyer talk, but for the purpose of explaining the tricky part, Tx anyhow, upon the death of the testator/testatrix, the court does not need to call the witnesses into the probate court to prove the will or read the will because it was self-proven through the "proof" process between the witnesses and the notary.)

It's better if it is done with an attorney, but there's no law against it in Tx for the notary to complete the statutory forms. The witnesses/proofs, naturally, are also supposed to be noted in the journal.

Just for entertainment:
Form of Certificate for Proof by Witness

State of Texas
County of _______________

Before me, Sally Notary, on this day personally appeared _______Witness and Witness_____________, known to me (or proved to me on the oath of ______________), to be the person whose name is subscribed as a witness to the foregoing instrument of writing, and after being duly sworn by me stated on oath that s/he saw _______, the __name of Testator/trix__who executed the foregoing instrument, subscribe the same (WILLS: or that the person who executed such instrument of writing acknowledged in her/his presence that s/he had executed the same for the purposes and consideration therein expressed), and that he had signed the same as a witness at the request of __name of Testator/trix__ (or person who executed the same.)

Given under my hand and seal of office this __________ day of __________, (year).


______________________
Notary Public's Signature

What will I say about the will? "I prefer to avoid them, but if you do them, the proof by witness should not be replaced with an ack or a jurat. Use whatever is on the document, and if you don't feel like you have the right certificate, then don't do it. It's better to decline than to start working on the way the document was constructed, thereby practicing law. Go back and read your Tx statutory forms for completing the proof."

Laura - thanks for the pm and the stories. All of this is very good and appropriate info. Helpful.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 2/6/10 5:18pm
Msg #321697

Same in VA - Self-Proving Aff usually accompanies the will n/m

Reply by Les_CO on 2/6/10 10:37am
Msg #321616

I’d be sure to cover the notarization of documents with blanks. Many times I’ve been summoned to a continuing care facility to notarize POAs/ living wills, etc. and when I get there they have a document full of blanks, thinking they get the patient to sign it and fill in the blanks later.

Reply by Notarysigner on 2/6/10 10:50am
Msg #321618

That's a biggy...I see that a lot also.

Reply by Laura_V on 2/6/10 10:59am
Msg #321622

Annoying as heck, eh? n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/6/10 11:02am
Msg #321623

This board is a gold mine. Thank you! n/m