Posted by Larry Jacobs on 2/24/10 12:57pm
Msg #324083
best practices
How about some suggestions for best practices for a situation we’ve all heard about but which is rarely addressed in training. BTW, I couldn't find anything directly related to this using the orange search button, so . . .
You go to a closing and the BR’s D/L picture and DOB doesn’t appear to match the BR sitting across from you. You’re smart so you ask for a 2nd picture ID but the BR says they don’t have one. And no, there is no possibility of a 'credible witness' to help you out. Now you’re thinking this isn’t good; the age and picture don’t resemble this BR and you realize this could well be a scam and you shouldn’t do the closing. But you also know that if you're wrong about this, the LO, the TC and maybe a signing service will be on you hard. (By the way, if you do this work long enough, you WILL find yourself in this situation at some point.)
So, what do you do? You know the BR is going to push back on you to close the deal, so what
do you tell the BR?
| Reply by CopperheadVA on 2/24/10 1:04pm
Msg #324085
I did refuse to complete a closing once because I suspected the ID to be fraudulent. The Virginia DMV is not known for its accuracy in names and addresses, however these discrepancies were too numerous and one of the ID's was skewed off-center. It just didn't pass the smell test for me, and I did not want my notary stamp anywhere on those docs.
The L/O was at the appointment. He and his assistant had driven down from Manhattan (yes, from New York to Virginia!) to attend this closing because he had so much $$$$ riding on it. He was not happy with me AT ALL. I called the TC and they wanted to see the ID. L/O went off with the ID's to find a fax machine somewhere and I took my leave. I was instructed to leave the docs. I received a trip and print fee for that job.
| Reply by FeliseSoCal on 2/24/10 2:45pm
Msg #324120
My feeling is that whether your client is the title company, signing service, or lender, if they are reputable they will trust your judgment and thank you for your professionalism. That's been my experience.
If they are not reputable, they'll pressure you to do the closing, knowing full well that it's your derričre on the line and not theirs. I have lost clients over this, but not sleep, and certainly not my livelihood.
| Reply by MelissaCT on 2/26/10 9:10pm
Msg #324458
CT isn't very particular about some things either. I've seen married borrowers with the same address but DIFFERENT zip codes on licenses. I've also seen people with different town name than the property was really in -- I know, it was in the neighborhood I grew up & a few streets away. Definitely NOT the right info on their licenses. All I can say is "hmmmm"
| Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 2/24/10 1:06pm
Msg #324086
What about sams club membership or such? No neighbors to call? Your in the drivers seat if the pic doesn't resemble the bo u have to decide based on situation and the 'gut feeling'. If ur wrong and close I hope u have liability insurance.
| Reply by PAW on 2/24/10 2:07pm
Msg #324114
ID doesn't match the person, nothing left to do
but NOT do the signing. In FL, CA, and many other states, there is a list of acceptable forms of ID that a notary must rely on as primary evidence that the person named in the docs is the person sitting in front of you. If you can't rely on any one of the primary ID's authorized, then you can't complete the job. Now, obviously, that only pertains to the notarization aspect of the job, but if you can't notarize the signer's signature, there isn't any sense in completing the non-notarized, signing agent, tasks.
If someone presented me a picture ID (e.g., driver's license) and the person looks considerably older or younger than the photo in the ID, AND the DOB didn't seem to coincide with the appearance of the signer, then, imo, you are obligated to abort the signing. Sam's Club membership cards or neighbors are not authorized in FL to be used as the basis of identification.
| Reply by Doris_CO on 2/24/10 3:07pm
Msg #324126
Re: ID doesn't match the person, so how do you get out of
the signing without a scene? The "borrower" is expecting to sign papers and get away with whatever. I'm just curious.
| Reply by SueW/Tn on 2/24/10 3:38pm
Msg #324131
Re: ID doesn't match the person, so how do you get out of
When it happened to me the husband was attempting to refi without his wife's authorization and attempted to pass his daughter off as his wife. We had no problem because I didn't accuse them of anything, I merely stated I was unable to continue due to my states regulations regarding identification. I wouldn't care what anyone from the Lender had to say about it; it's the law.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/24/10 3:57pm
Msg #324132
How do you get out of it?
Maybe not without causing a scene - if they're trying to pull something they're going to be po'd that they got caught....but you get out of it in the same way you would if they had NO ID - it's the same thing - inadequate or false ID is no ID....
| Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 2/24/10 4:38pm
Msg #324140
Re: ID doesn't match the person, nothing left to do
The reason I suggested sams. Club was to be able to match names no to use as an id
| Reply by NCsignguy on 2/24/10 1:09pm
Msg #324090
I ask myself is the fee worth losing my license or being sued? In real life the borrower had this issue before its not the 1st time they were ID. Ask if there is anything i can see with the right name or a combonation of names, birth certificates, marrige license, SS Card Medicare etc if they cant provide it then something fishy is happenening.
I let the title company know I cant close it, if they are good they wouldnt want you to close it without proper id
| Reply by JanelWI on 2/24/10 1:35pm
Msg #324106
You are being contracted for your knowledge, professionalism, and experience as a notary signing agent. Part of that job is to adhere to the ID requirements for your state, as well as what title and lender are requesting. If you are at a closing, and you visually see the person before you does not resemble in any way the person or birth date on the ID. Then, the answer is clear. Call the company who contracted with you, and explain. That falls on you. You are there to properly ID an individual according to your state requirement. It does not matter what the lender or title company will “accept”. At that point, in my opinion, that is your domain. You would call the company that contracted with you and share your concerns, and the fact that the borrower had no other form of picture ID to support the primary ID in question. You can tell them according to your state requirement you can not proceed. You also explain to the borrower what your role in the transaction is, and why you are unable to proceed. I would also suggest you get intimate with your SOS, and notarial laws. When I have questions about notarial requirements, they are the first place I go to for answers.
However, before any of this make sure you have exhausted all options. Does the address on the ID match the residence? How many years is the ID for? Have they aged ungracefully? Your example is rather vague. Is there neighbors, birth certificate, social security card, car insurance, home insurance dec page, previous mortgage paperwork showing his signature, married, unmarried? Credit card in their wallet with that name on it? Is the closing at his residence or another location? It would be unusual if you are doing an in home closing, and they would not be able to whip out a wallet with some other articles that could support his name address etc....I have been in many situations where the primary ID is somewhat in question. The borrowers are literally throwing other forms at me they “think” will help establish them.
Best practices? make sure every company you work with understands that “you” understand what is required of you to properly ID someone. If they fall short, you will adjourn the closing. Make sure you clearly explain your role to the borrowers you are serving, on behalf of lender and title. Your role as an impartial party must be maintained throughout the process. This is your business at the end of the day. What guidelines and best practices have you set to ensure the integrity of your business? In my opinion, if you are pressured by any or all of the parties, you have just given up your impartial status.
| Reply by MelissaCT on 2/26/10 9:14pm
Msg #324459
If they were trying to purchase alcohol with that ID, the clerk would refuse the sale...same thing with our services. If the glove don't fit...well, if the ID don't match what's in front of you...
| Reply by BossLadyMD on 2/24/10 1:10pm
Msg #324092
no rocket science
just be able to articulate whatever decision you make
| Reply by Notarysigner on 2/24/10 1:11pm
Msg #324093
"Doesn't appear to match.."
I would ask them if they could explain why it was different. Are they a twin? father, son.....cross gender? Then defer to SS with the explanation and how I felt about it.
| Reply by Philip Johnson on 2/24/10 1:11pm
Msg #324094
I'm familiar with this.
A year or so ago "Karen" a twin sister to "Sharon" was filling in for her sister who was away for work a month or two. Karen had Sharon's license and what upset the apple cart was when we were confirming SSAN's and Sharon couldn't get it right. Finally after 4 or 5 minutes of hemming and hawing she blurted out that she wasn't Karen, but was Sharon her twin sister.
At this point the husband gave an Oscar winning portrayal of shock and denial. It all reminded me of Casablanca and the local Gendarme who was shocked there was gambling. As I was picking up my stuff to leave, they started arguing and at that point I was almost convinced they were married.
| Reply by SueW/Tn on 2/24/10 1:13pm
Msg #324096
I had this happen once, turns out the BO (wife) who was sitting in front of me was actually the daughter trying to help her Dad out. Of course I didn't do the signing; a scammer will say/do anything to get the job done. You've got to go with what you firmly believe, I'd rather beg forgiveness than ask permission.
| Reply by Bob_Chicago on 2/24/10 2:00pm
Msg #324111
Actually, the TC's risk is a lot greater than that of the NP
So long as the NP (in most states) see's a valid ID with the signer's name on
it they are covered if they are "reasonably " sure that they have the proper person.
If mortgage fraud is in progress, they TC will be issuing an insurance policy for many thousand
dollars, insuring the validity of a mortgage signed by an imposter .
Problem won't become apparent until lender attempts to enforce it's lien, and
real party says, Not my signature, I was in Europe on that date.
| Reply by Grammyzoom on 2/24/10 2:11pm
Msg #324115
Our value
Our value is clear. Our base responsibility is to make sure that the person or persons signing the documents requiring a notarization are who they say they are. If you are not convinced of this you have no choice but to leave until they can provide additional documentation which will convince you 100% that they are the person they say they are.
If you can, take a photo of the person signing and a copy of the identification. This may help you defend your actions in the face of an angry client.
I would never risk losing my certification out of fear of losing my client or making them angry. The people that hire us need to know that we are doing what is expected of us without exception.
It is a little like having an LO who begs you to back date. Ethics must be the priority here.
| Reply by Roger_OH on 2/24/10 2:15pm
Msg #324116
Hey Larry...
Ohio does not (as yet) mandate Patriot Act guidelines for IDs. In its current antiquated form, Ohio law states only that the notary must be "reasonably certain" of the signer's identity, and however you arrive at that determination is ultimately up to you. If you're not comfortable with the ID provided, or have any doubt, then refuse to proceed. As others have noted in this thread, there are indeed signers with bad intentions.
Having said that, state law also does not hold the notary responsible for ensuring that an ID is genuine. If you've checked it, and it later still turns out to be a fake, it's not your fault.
The current law is one thing, Best Practices are another. Ask for additional ID, and if you're still not satisfied, then simply refuse, and tell the SS/TC why. Don't be bullied by some LO a thousand miles away, whose only interest is their fee from the signing; it's your responsibility to confirm ID, not theirs.
www.ohionotaries.org
| Reply by BossLadyMD on 2/25/10 10:40am
Msg #324228
ohio is not following standards of fed patriot act?
how is that??
what are the standards of ID in Ohio?
"Section 326: Verification of Identification"
"Prescribes regulations establishing minimum standards for financial institutions and their customers regarding the identity of a customer that shall apply with the opening of an account at the financial institution"
| Reply by Robert/FL on 2/26/10 5:59pm
Msg #324439
All the more reason to include the ID serial # in the notarial certificate, if your state allows. Then, it is certified on record exactly what type of D/L was presented, so if it turns out to be a fake the notary is not responsible.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/26/10 7:21pm
Msg #324450
I would never put the drivers license number (or ID number) on the notarial certificate.
It used to be accepted practice at one time, but not any more.
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