Posted by Marian_in_CA on 1/16/10 4:14am
Msg #318213

For CA: "photostatic copies"

I was reading through the handbook tonight and I had this odd thought and decided to toss it out here for the fun of it. For reference, I'm talking about pages 9-10 of the CA handbook (2009) as it relates to providing copies of journal entries. And yes, I fully acknowledge that fact that this is a very nit-picky thing... like I said, it's just for fun.... and I'm deliriously tired and thinking weird.

The law states that we must provide (upon proper request) a "photostatic" copy. That's such an odd word, actually... essentially archaic. A "photostat" isn't really simply a photocopy. A photostat is a photograph of a document. You've heard the term "camera ready artwork" right? Same thing... a Photostat would produce a high quality negative of the document for reproduction. Technically, "camera ready" is as obsolete as the Photostat. And yet, it's still used all the time.

The vast majority of "photocopies" today are actually xerographs, not photostats. Think Xerox here.

In practice, a "photostat" really just means a "photocopy" or "xerograph", but I find it interesting that the law uses that specific word. In fact, I don't know anyone who says "photostat" - it's always "photocopy" or "copy" ... or even "Xerox" in some circles.


So, given that we can't really provide a true photostatic copy, it got me to wondering if a PDF or scanned image file might also work. This is especially because we can only charge $0.30 a page for it. That doesn't even cover the cost of mailing. If somebody requests a copy, it seems like it would be easier (and less expensive) to email electronic copies of the pages rather than paper, especially of the copies were properly protected to prevent changes (such as with a protected PDF file).

What do you think? I've never done this yet... but I got to wondering how I would provide these copies if I were asked. PDF scans would be the easiest for me, personally.

And, what if our journal is electronic? How do you photocopy an electronic file?

I don't have an electronic journal... but I know some notaries that do.

Reply by Robert/FL on 1/16/10 7:32am
Msg #318214

I use the phrase "photostatic copy" fairly frequently. IMO these days it's just a longer and more formal way to say "photocopy", and I typically use the phrase "photostatic" when certifying copies from my journal. Of course, I am in Florida, and journals aren't required here anyway. I always give couples I have married a copy of the journal entry pertaining to their marriage.

In your case, I would be more inclined to mail them a hard copy rather than an electronic copy for aesthetic purposes - i.e. an original raised seal and signature, etc. I also don't think that "photostatic copy" refers to a PDF or scanned image, but rather to a run-of-the-mill photocopy. I don't know your requirements in Calif., but if they are not strict with the requirements for journal entry copies then maybe a PDF would be allowed. In Fla. we have no guidelines on the matter.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 1/16/10 8:24am
Msg #318218

From what I have read here, a CA NP is PROHIBITED..

from using their seal for any purpose other than an official notarial act.
Accordingly, if you stamp your seal on a scrap of paper to see if it
requires re-inking, black helicopters will descend and rip your commision off
your wall. This is , of course , assuming that the state has money to buy gas
for the helicopter.
Have a great weekend.

Reply by MW/VA on 1/16/10 9:35am
Msg #318225

Re: From what I have read here, a CA NP is PROHIBITED..

ROFL--good one, Bob.

Reply by Robert/FL on 1/16/10 9:38am
Msg #318229

Re: From what I have read here, a CA NP is PROHIBITED..

But since CA notaries are authorized by law to certify copies from their journal, doesn't that constitute a California "notarial act", thus allowing a seal to be used?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/16/10 2:43pm
Msg #318275

Re: From what I have read here, a CA NP is PROHIBITED..

If someone requested a copy of a journal entry from me, that's exactly what they would get - without any "seal" or stamp. There's nothing to indicate that it needs to be stamped. Plus there is an additional statement (beyond what Bob said ) that our stamp can only be used with correct notarial verbiage. Since I've yet to see any "notarial verbiage" that is supposed to go along with a journal entry, I would not stamp it.

Marian, I think you make an interesting point - and "archaic" is probably the key word here. Might be a good idea to address your thought to the SOS office. I agree that a PDF file - if acceptable by the requester - would be much preferable. And it *would* be nice to see the $.30/pg increased to at least cover the cost of a postage stamp!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/16/10 3:38pm
Msg #318285

Re: From what I have read here, a CA NP is PROHIBITED..

Thanks, Janet.... yeah, it would be nice to see that code modified. Either have the amount increased or be modified to say "the cost of first-class postage" or something like that.

$0.30 is a bit ridiculous. And, if they have to supply the request in writing, who is going to mail a check for $0.30 or $0.60?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/16/10 3:19pm
Msg #318281

Bob, you're right... but...

We don't use our seal on these copies. At least, nobody I know would. It's actually one of those situations where we need more clarification from the SOS. We have "sample" wording for certifying copies of POA copies.

They do no address how to go about "certifying" a copy of our journals. This is all we have:


"A notary public may only certify copies of powers of attorney under Probate Code section
4307 and his or her notary public journal. (Government Code sections 8205(a)(4), 8205(b)(1),
and 8206(e))"


It does make me wonder.... how do we certify a copy of our journal without our seal? It's true that we can't affix our seal without proper notarial wording, but we don't have an example of "proper" notarial wording when certifying copies of our journals.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/16/10 3:31pm
Msg #318283

Let's add to that...

The legal code itself is actually worded a bit differently than in the handbook, which makes this more confusing. But... this is likely why a CA notary won't put their seal on a journal copy we give to a member of the public - because those are NOT certified copies. The paragraph I quoted earlier from our handbook, I think is a bit misleading. It makes us think we need to certify copies of the journal in all cases. Apparently, that's not quite true.


When dealing with the public, according to the code, we are to simply "supply" a copy. It is when the SOS requests a copy that we certify it. How's that for confusing?

Gov't Code 8206(c):

"(c) Upon written request of any member of the public, which
request shall include the name of the parties, the type of document,
and the month and year in which notarized, the notary shall supply a
photostatic copy of the line item representing the requested
transaction at a cost of not more than thirty cents ($0.30) per page."

8206.5:

"Upon receiving a request for a copy of a transaction pursuant to subdivision (c) of Section
8206, the notary shall respond to the request within 15 business days after receipt of the request and either supply the photostatic copy requested or acknowledge that no such line item exists."


Gov't Code 8205(b):

"(b) It shall further be the duty of a notary public, upon written
request:
(1) To furnish to the Secretary of State certified copies of the
notary's journal.
(2) To respond within 30 days of receiving written requests sent
by certified mail from the Secretary of State's office for
information relating to official acts performed by the notary."