Posted by Les_CO on 1/6/10 11:36am
Msg #316909

Notary Signing Agent?

After reading Renee's post 316864, and Paul’s post 316870
I started thinking…..
Notary Signing Agent? Seems like a contradiction of terms to me, but what should we call ourselves, and our job?
Are we agents acting on the behalf of others? I say yes, to be sure. If so, in whose behalf are we acting? Who is the principal? Is it ostensibly the borrower, acting through the Title Company (which the borrower pays) that hires us ether directly, or through a Signing Service? If the borrower hires us, and pays us, directly, it would seem he is the Principal, and we are the Agent? As such do we owe him certain fiduciary duties? I say yes. But as a Notary how can this be? Aren’t we as Notaries supposed to be a disinterested impartial third party witness to the signatures? If we are hired directly by the Title Company are we their agent? Acting as an extension thereof, or the borrower, that hires and pays us, albeit indirectly? I say in this case we are an ‘agent’ of the Title Company. They hire us, they pay us (sometimes) so do we owe them allegiance and not the borrower? To me it becomes more clear when it’s a ‘purchase/sale.’ We surely cannot act on behalf of both buyer, and seller? Although the seller normally pays the fees {that come out of the buyers pocket}. Are we then representing neither buyer, nor seller, but acting at the behest of the Title Company, a supposedly disinterested third party to the transaction? I say yes, and I think here our ‘notary hat’ fits a bit better.

Notary Signing Agent: A disinterested impartial third party that has an agency capacity, and fiduciary duty to some or all of the parties involved? Interesting……

Remote Closer? Has sort of a ring to it….but maybe not in Florida?

Any thoughts from or attorney friends? Or others?

Reply by Lee/AR on 1/6/10 11:48am
Msg #316911

With all due respect to Susan Pense, who coined the term, I do not see where an IC is an Agent of anyone. Hired by someone, sure, but Agent? Nah. Tho' a case can be made by using another definition of Agent--as in chemistry, an Agent causes something to happen.
(In our case, signatures happen.) I'm being seriously facetious, here.
Closer: Denotes an actual closing and disbursement of funds--we don't do that either.
I'd love to see a better name for what we do, but this one has been around and 'accepted' for so long that I see no hope in changing it to something that is, in fact, accurate.

Reply by Pat/IL on 1/6/10 12:07pm
Msg #316917

Whether the word 'agent' is appropriate or not, I don't know. The notary is acting on behalf of the title company and is actually performing a part of the function of the title company.

The title company's job is to protect the interests of the insured, whether that be the lender, buyer or both. Thus, by extension, the notary's duty is also to the insured.

That's not an absolute statement, however. The title company also has a responsibility to see that all parties are afforded all of their rights in the transaction.

Reply by MonicaFL on 1/6/10 12:14pm
Msg #316920

Well, I look at it this way - I AM a notary public, commissioned in my State to perform notary duties within the scope of the laws in and of my state. Thus, I believe that the name of our top hat is Notary Public and any other title you may want to "hang" down from that hat - is just an additive - I notarize documents and, in my state, I officiate at weddings. Do I call myself a "notary minister" because I officiate at weddings - no, I an a notary who is authorized by my state to perform this duty.

I AM A NOTARY PUBLIC - what's wrong with that title?

JMO of course!

Reply by Les_CO on 1/6/10 12:20pm
Msg #316922

Ahhhh….. Agent.... as in reagent?
I like it!
A slogan: A Notary Signing Reagent: We Make Signatures Happen!!!

I was thinking because of the sensitive information, and sometimes money, we handle, and the nature of our jobs,(and knowledge of everything from, from marital law to real estate law to federal and State lending and consumer protection laws) more the legal term ‘Agency’

Reply by Charles_Ca on 1/6/10 9:43pm
Msg #317051

in that case why ot catalyst? I have been pilloried before

for suggesting that the notary conducting a closing is not an agent. Under California Law there is no agency establoished. Many notaries don't even work for title companies but for SS. I am sure that title companies would not wnat Notaries to have an agency relationship withthem because of the liability involved. Notaries are not 'agents" at least as defined in California, I'm licnesed to speak for California but I can't speak for any other State. One of the comments made during previous discussion of this topic is that notaries are agents as sewer workers are engineers!

Reply by Les_CO on 1/6/10 10:17pm
Msg #317062

Re: Charles

A Notary Signing Catalyst? No….that doesn’t quite move me…but a good suggestion none the less.
Charles as A licensed real Estate Broker I know you are very familiar with the legal terms Agency, and Fiduciary. As a Real Estate Broker (not as a Notary) you probably establish these with your clients on a daily basis. Unless we can firmly stand as ‘independent contractors’ given the nature of our work I think that some agency could exist (legally) between the parties involved. This is why I question if we can be both an ‘agent’ and a disinterested third party.
And, I’d bet that some of the people working for the Department of Sanitation ARE engineers.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/6/10 3:35pm
Msg #316991

Re: Lee

I like the “Independent Contractor” hat. It’s sort of like the Sombrero that Robert Mitchum wore in The Wonderful Country. Covers a lot. I personally work for my Company that contracts out as an Independent contractor to whoever hires my company (me). However I still worry about the “agency” thing. I think it would be easy to claim that in our capacity as ‘Notary Signing Agents’ we had an agency relationship to someone involved with the ‘closing.’ Also I doubt that a judge would hold us out to be a totally lay person. I think a judge would say that to do our job correctly that we must and do possess a great deal more knowledge than the average Joe when it comes to the nuisances of the job. If we for instance throw the signed package in the back seat, of our car, and then go on vacation for a week, causing financial harm to the borrower/lender/title company. “I’m just a Notary” would be a poor defense.

Reply by LisaWI on 1/6/10 12:06pm
Msg #316916

Re: Hmmm, who Am I?

Is the question. Up here in my neck of the woods, my main concern is when I make a phone call to the borrowers. I have referenced myself as a "Notary Signing Agent" since I started this. The reason being is I want them to connect me to their loan closing and if I just used Signing Agent, they probably wouldnt get it as quickly. But this would be a surface title and would not explain who I am responsible to as far as an acting agent. So I agree with you on these questions. If I had a fudiciary responsibility to someone, I wouldnt mind, I would just like it to be written in stone, so to say, so I know where I stand and who I am. Also, having a title that is universally recognized by all would be nice. To some comps, I am a remote closer, some just a notary and yet others I am a Notary Signing Agent. Even though I perform the same functions, these titles of who I am technically have different definitions.

Nice post Les. Looking foward to what others have to say.

Reply by jfs/IL on 1/6/10 12:44pm
Msg #316933

Re: Hmmm, who Am I?

I agree with your sense of connection with the phrase Notary Signing Agent Lisa.

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/6/10 12:12pm
Msg #316919

When I confirm an appointment, whether a loan signing or general notary work, I refer to myself as a Notary Public. I am assured that ALL (young, old, foreign or domestic) know the title Notary Public. I am not assured that everyone knows any other title. Therefore, I keep it simple and consistent and it works well.

Reply by Notarysigner on 1/6/10 12:33pm
Msg #316927

Ditto I do the same

Reply by jfs/IL on 1/6/10 12:36pm
Msg #316929

I did not read all of the posting in this discussion but would like to stick my two-cent in.
First and Foremost we are a Notary Public commissioned by our SOS.
The word Agent means that you are a representative of another entity.
DO we call insurance persons insurance man or woman or do they represent themselves as insurance agents????

Reply by Roger_OH on 1/6/10 12:37pm
Msg #316930

I also introduce myself as a notary.

We're notaries first, signing "agents" second; the latter "agent" term refers to being the catalyst that ensures the signing is executed accurately and correctly per instructions, which is why I'm hired by the TC. As such, I don't represent their interests as a settlement/closing agent, funds disburser, etc.

That said, I ensure the borrowers know that I'm there as an impartial officer of the state to protect both parties. I protect the lender/TC (often thousands of miles away) by ensuring thru proper ID that these are the right people they're giving all this money to, and that documents are signed correctly and in accordance with state laws; I protect the signers by ensuring that they are aware of and comfortable with each doc they are signing, that they sign freely, and that they have the opportunity to pose any questions to their LO.

Not all notaries are signing agents, but all signing agents are notaries.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/6/10 3:14pm
Msg #316982

Re:Roger

Agreed!

Reply by PAW on 1/6/10 1:04pm
Msg #316943

Since agency law is concerned with any "principal"<->"agent" relationship; a relationship in which one person has legal authority to act for another, there exists an agreement, express , or implied, by which one of the parties, called the principal, entrusts to the other, called the agent, the management of some business; to be transacted in his name, or on his account, and by which the agent assumes to do the business and to render an account of it.

It has been long held that, as a general rule, whatever a man may do by himself, except by virtue of a delegated authority, he may do by an agent. Thus, I submit that we are an agent of the Title Closer, Closing Agent or whatever handle the Title Company assigns to the person who initiates the agreement. It is this person that I consider to be the principal in the agency relationship. We are acting on their behalf, performing some business that they would normally do if the conditions were different, but with limited authority.

A related question always seems to arise from these discussions. Are we a "notary" first? I submit that the two are separate and distinct, having separate and distinct functions and consequences. Therefore, I don't consider myself a notary first, nor do I consider myself a "signing agent" first. The two functions are very different and cannot be subjectively or objectively compared. We cannot wear both hats at the same time. We are doing the work of one or other at any given time. The two functions stand alone (even though intertwined) and can actually be done by two separate people at two separate times, though that is not normally how things are done.

Reply by Tess on 1/6/10 1:19pm
Msg #316948

Re: Ditto! n/m

Reply by Jim/AL on 1/6/10 1:20pm
Msg #316949

Notary Gods and Goddess, lol. It is just a title, who cares n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 1/6/10 1:39pm
Msg #316951

Perfect, perfect, perfect.

Absolutely, Paul - we are agents of the title agent, who is an agent of the Lender, and that's a debate I tired of long ago (the agent/not an agent debate).

I couldn't find anything in the FL licensing definitions that use the term "title closer" (as you'd mentioned earlier) - all I found matched what's defined here in MI, "title agent" or "title agency" or "title insurer". Actually found that case of the "contract closer" that got like 500 years for fraud (was that a typo?!). \

Now ...consider, in FL, you have to EITHER take this class OR have so much work experience UNDER a licensed title agent, in order to apply for your own license (I think there were a couple more OR items, actually). That right there would indicate that FL does allow "title closers" to work w/out benefit of license or education.

A closing is not any single act - it is a compilation of processes, performed by several different entities (us included). When I did the lending end, I was a lender's closer and I did 'closings'; when I did the title end I was a title closer and I did 'closings' and it was NOT the same job at all! When I was in retail I was the broker's closer and when I did a closing it was, of course, a whole other set of procedures than any of the others. Now, I'm a contract closer and I do closings and my clients say "Can you do a closing on ..." and I say "Just letting you know this is all closed." Closing closers close AUGH! =)

As for the notary public part - it's a consequence of being a Closer, for me. If I weren't doing Closings I would not be a notary public. I like to mention my tax accountant who is also a notary - not on his business card, not in his ads, not something he even mentions - he does taxes, and sometimes needs to notarize items for his clients. <-- how I feel about it.

Reply by PAW on 1/6/10 1:55pm
Msg #316954

Re: Perfect, perfect, perfect.

>>> That right there would indicate that FL does allow "title closers" to work w/out benefit of license or education. <<<

This is true. Title closers do not need to be licensed (at this time) to work as a title closer. However, they must be working **directly** under a licensed title agent if they don't have their own license. May ex-title agents and closers have started their own garage/basement title company in Florida. The regulations are so lax in that respect. The same for loan originators and mortgage brokers. However, hopefully the regulations will be tightened in the upcoming legislative session if new bills are introduced.

The "Workforce Connection" (the employment division run by the state) maintains the definitions of job titles for the state. It's hard to find any statute that refers to many actual job titles, but certainly reference the job descriptions.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/6/10 3:13pm
Msg #316979

Re: Paul

Paul…..I like that thought…… Two separate hats… two separate jobs… but entwined.

So on my next ‘signing’ if I took a Notary with me, and he notarized the documents requiring notarizations, while I supervised, and was responsible for the presentation/explanation/signing of the remainder of the docs, as well as their safe return to Title. We two would be doing what we all (whatever we are) normally now do alone?

But as I think about it, maybe I like it less, two jobs, two hats, and one miniscule paycheck?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/6/10 1:59pm
Msg #316957

Sooo....after all the debate....how about...

Notary Title Rep? A notary who represents the title company at the signing.

Just a thought.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/6/10 3:47pm
Msg #316997

Re: Sooo....after all the debate....how about...

Notary Document Handler? Protector? Guardian
Mobile Notary and Remote Semi-closer?

Sorry guys it's snowing and cold, and nasty out here in Denver today, and I'm bored.

Reply by Notarysigner on 1/6/10 6:46pm
Msg #317022

Re: Sooo....after all the debate....how about...

How about, No-Secretary-to-Sign-Agent? Okay I tried!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/6/10 6:48pm
Msg #317023

Re: Sooo....after all the debate....how about...

Just-a-Notary?...

Reply by jba/fl on 1/6/10 6:55pm
Msg #317024

Sure - just start that thread all over LOL n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 1/6/10 7:14pm
Msg #317027

Re: Sure - just start that thread all over LOL

Oh, pleeeeeez, not that again!

Reply by LisaWI on 1/7/10 9:18am
Msg #317093

Re: Sooo....after all the debate....how about...

Loan Signing Associate?

Reply by trnsa_IL on 1/6/10 9:29pm
Msg #317048

I do go by "Notary Signing Agent". When I contact a borrower I introduce myself like this: "Hello, My name is Tonya Russell, I am Signing Agent, and I have been asked to facilitate the signing of your loan documents." I usually mention the Notary part when I am asking them to make a copy of their ID and to have the actual ID with them so that I may see it.

I will mention that I wish the NSA "title" was not, IMO, synonymous with the NNA

Reply by Pat/IL on 1/6/10 10:24pm
Msg #317063

Tonya said: "...I have been asked to facilitate the signing of your loan documents."

Then you are a Loan Signing Facilitator. It doesn't sound too fancy, but that's what you do.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/6/10 10:47pm
Msg #317067

Re: Pat

Addressing your previous post:
Question:
Is not the Title Company conducting the ‘closing’ by virtue of their escrow agreements, and State regulations supposed to be a “disinterested third party?” Do not they owe the same allegiance to all parties involved, regardless of who they insure? Yes I know they sell Title Insurance, and will gladly sell an owner’s policy too. And I know they charge for the “closing” But are they governed not by who they insure, but by the closing instructions they receive, or the real estate contract between parties?

Reply by Pat/IL on 1/6/10 11:50pm
Msg #317071

Re: Les

First, let me remind you that I added that little CYA at the end of the post: "The title company also has a responsibility to see that all parties are afforded all of their rights in the transaction."

There are all sorts of laws that protect the borrower in a transaction in which the borrower is not the insured. The borrowers are covered under RESPA, TILA, HOEPA, state laws, the list goes on. The title company is required to abide by all of the laws designed to protect the consumer. Even further, the parties that hire the title company will not appreciate mistreatment of their clients. They want their clients to return to them for their future financial needs.

Being a disinterested third party means following all of the laws, following the instructions of the insured (as long as they are lawful) and performing the task we are hired to do. For the title company, that means protecting the financial (or ownership) interest of the insured. If the lender is the insured, it means insuring that a valid lien is placed on the property and that the lien position is that which the lender expects.

If the title company does not extend all of the rights to the borrowers that the various laws afford to them, it can imperil the validity of the lien. In that respect, and with respect for human decency, the title company has an obligation to the borrower.

Title companies follow lenders' closing instructions because the lenders will not accept the insurance policy without their conditions, or more accurately, the conditions of their investors,
being met. The title company will not, or should not, insure a loan without its stipulations being met.

So in essence, you are right. I seem to have taken the long route to explain that we are really on the same page. I think my main point in my post you referenced is that the contract notary is working as an extension of the title (or escrow) company, who is working to secure the interests of the insured, and therefor, the contract notary is also working in the interest of the insured.

Apologies for the length of this reply. It's late and even I am too tired to read it over to make sure if it makes sense.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/7/10 8:05am
Msg #317085

Re: Pat

Yes, your response was clear, and informative. Thank you for taking time to respond. These may seem foolish questions to some, but as you know there are many of us that have had little title or legal experience, but are still trying to do this job as best we can. I believe that when we present a loan package to a borrower (or buyer/seller) for their signature, we are going the exact same thing as the escrow officer/closer at the Title Company would do. As you say, an “extension” thereof. No we don’t do the clean-out or disburse funds, but we do the job in part.
As others have said this forum is a great place to learn.

Reply by trnsa_IL on 1/7/10 9:44am
Msg #317111

I agree with you both. n/m