Posted by GOLDGIRL/CA on 1/21/10 8:23pm
Msg #318922

Re borrower's copy question revisited

from earlier thread today. (Thread kinda got sidetracked by pro/con geezer comments). Anyway, where is it written borrowers get a complete copy of loan docs? I've searched RESPA and have never found what the law/regulation actually requires at closing. I know I provide a complete copy because all hiring agencies say so. But when I get overnight docs from TCs, the copy they provide often is nowhere near a complete set. Most;y just criticals - and sometimes not even all those. Also, what is considered a "copy": a CD? forwarding the docs from your computer to borrower? Paper only? I'd just like to know if anyone knows what the law says - if anything...?

Reply by Regal/NC on 1/21/10 8:30pm
Msg #318926

Hiring party usually dictates copy requirements n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/21/10 8:31pm
Msg #318927

Re: Re borrower's copy question revisited n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/21/10 8:43pm
Msg #318934

Sorry, hit the button too soon...

I agree with Regal and John......hiring party decides what borrower gets. It works best to provide an exact printed copy in case mistakes are made on the signing copy.

Reply by John Schenk on 1/21/10 8:39pm
Msg #318930

Do what the TC or SS that hired you tells you to do.

Providing the copy is a part of your fee. I haven't seen a confirmation yet that says to provide the borrowers with a CD. Mine all say PRINT A COPY FOR THE BORROWER, period. Certainly, if you call the BO and they say a CD is fine, then I don't guess I'd have a problem with that, but since my confirmation, or instructions when I get the docs in, tells me to PRINT A COPY FOR THE BORROWER, then if I vary from that, I'd have to get approval from the TC or SS that hired me.

It has nothing to do with the law, unless it's a HELOC or a cashout, in which case you are REQUIRED by law to provide the BO with a copy of the executed docs immediately after the signing. Not UPL...the law. Other than that, you do what you were hired to do, and that normally requires you providing a copy of the docs to the BO. The TIL and the RTC you really have no choice but to provide them with those copies. They have to sign acknowledging getting those copies at closing, don't they?

I think if we could always give a copy via CD would be GREAT! I don't think that we have the choice to do that if the hiring entity, TC or SS, does not approve that, even if the BO is okay with it because I've never seen a confirmation, or instructions, that tell me that giving the BO a CD is okay. Mine say GIVE THE BORROWER A COPY OF THE DOCS, period. Anything other than that and I haven't fulfilled my obligation to whomever hired me, unless I get approval to do otherwise.

The copy I give the borrower is identical to the copy they sign, unless it's a HELOC or cashout in which case their copy, after execution, is going to all be on legal size paper.

That's what I do, and think that is what is required from the TCs and SSs and Lenders, as that is what my instructions tell me I must do. Any variation from that I think should be approved by the hiring entity. JMHO

JJ

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/21/10 8:51pm
Msg #318937

define "copy" though....

Even the IRS accepts electronic copies of receipts these days. A "copy" is simply a reproduction.

I know that some instructions say to "print" a second copy. Others simply say to give them a copy. Giving them the docs on a CD is still giving them a "copy" -- just in a different medium than paper. But, as I mentioned before...I only do it when I'm specifically asked. I normally always provide a paper copy unless instructions mention otherwise. I have problem doing that... and they can come in handy if somebody makes a mistake. I would prefer CDs.... but then, I would prefer entirely electronic signings and notary journals, too. Nobody says it's going to actually happen.

Reply by John Schenk on 1/21/10 9:18pm
Msg #318942

Re: define "copy" though....

I think if you look in Black's Law Dictionary you won't find that giving them a CD is the same as giving them a "copy." We're talking real estate transactions here, and the law is especially narrow on transactions involving realty, which I believe to be pretty much universal. One of the most protected rights it the ownership of property, and the transactions regarding ownership.

I do not in any way believe that when we are hired and are instructed to give the BO a "copy" of the docs that it means to give them a copy of their docs on CD. I think it's GREAT if a BO asks for it on CD, and the entity hiring us says "SURE, THAT'S FINE!" Hey, that's KEWL! Wish they were all like that. However, I think a "copy" still means a physical "copy," and not a CD or floppy or a jump drive or the other stuff available, at least not yet. It certainly may get to that point, but haven't seen that it's gotten there yet.

I've never had a BO ask for a CD, or like medium for a copy, and I've never offered it. I would think that making a CD copy for the borrower would simply be an "added service," if I wanted to do that, but I'd still feel obligated to provide them with an actual copy of their docs, as the instructions I get say to give them a "copy" of their docs. I believe a "copy" still means a photocopy, until I see some legislation that states otherwise, at least for realty transactions. I personally don't want to take the chance of making an error that may expose me to personal liability. I'd rather err on the side of caution.

JJ

Reply by John Schenk on 1/21/10 8:52pm
Msg #318938

Oviously, this wouldn't apply if the BO already has a copy..

but that is a rarity. Often the BO has a complete copy of the docs in a HELOC or cashout, but that they still MUST receive a full copy of the executed docs, no matter whether their docs are identical to yours or not.

§153.22. Copies of Documents: Section 50(a)(6)(Q)(v). At closing, the lender must provide the owner with a copy of all documents that are signed at closing in connection with the equity loan. The lender is not required to give the owner copies of documents that were signed by the owner prior to closing, such as those signed during the application process. Because of their nature some documents, for example, a notification of the election of an owner or an owner's spouse not to rescind under the right of rescission must be signed after the date of closing. The lender must provide the owner copies of documents signed after the date of closing within three business days.

AT CLOSING, THE LENDER (which for us is any of us acting upon behalf of the lender) MUST PROVIDE THE OWNER WITH A COPY OF ALL DOCUMENTS THAT ARE SIGNED AT CLOSING IN CONNECTION WITH THE EQUITY LOAN.

No choice here on HELOCS. Cashouts has the same provisions but don't have the link handy right now.

Other than that, an variation from your instructions and I think you MUST get approval from the hiring entity to do other than give a copy of the docs to the BO, as that is what is almost 100% required.

JJ

Reply by Notarysigner on 1/21/10 9:18pm
Msg #318943

Re: Oviously, this wouldn't apply if the BO already has a copy..

I agree with you guys...it would really be great if we could just reproduce the Docs as a CD, save paper. I was told it is required by law but I don't know/care what code/section is. I do offer to send them the docs, in the same format I received them in addition to giving the hard copy on presentation.

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 1/21/10 9:58pm
Msg #318953

I always give a paper copy

It would only take one time for the borrower's to goof and you have no copy to switch out with and the trouble that could cause make the expense and time of printing to be a very small item. Just this past week, I had a refi. I had printed out the docs for the borrower. Got to the signing and wanted to swap out one of the latter docs in the package because the borrower started to sign in the wrong spot. Went to his pile and the first 30 pages or so (like 23 pages of lender instructions plus some others) were fine, but when I got further into the package it looked like GREEK. Still don't know what happened durint the printing but the bottom 2/3 of the package was gobbelty gook. So, I had to have him cross out where he started to sign, initial it and resign. Then I had to go back to the office and print out another copy for him and drive back out to his house to deliver. Two lessons learned: One always have a back up copy and Two, check the full package to make sure it printed OK, not just the top pages.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 1/21/10 10:02pm
Msg #318956

Re: I always give a paper copy

I always give them a paper copy too. But..I work with a TC that states on the confirmation..to save time and expense you may make a bo copy on a CD. I still dont do it for them. I like having the paper copy in front of me..just in case an error is made!

Reply by John Schenk on 1/21/10 11:00pm
Msg #318965

Re: I always give a paper copy

Never worked with one that told me that. I'd be glad to burn a CD, but never had one tell me that it was acceptable. Heck, I'd LOVE to be able to do that on EVERY closing! That'd be GREAT!

JJ

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 1/22/10 12:06am
Msg #318974

John - all you have to do is ask

I asked the escrow people at the two main TC branches I do 90% of my work for if CDs were acceptable. Both said yes, no problem. (One went to the president, who said yes; and the other TC branch acted like it was the greatest idea since chocolate chip cookies!) I always ask the borrowers what they prefer. About 75% want CDs; a few "don't care" and the rest really really want paper. I never ask Provident borrowers, though. I take a complete paper set to switch out. Most borrowers comment how much they like the CD and are soooo glad I didn't bring in a second huge pile of paper docs. When I first started doing this (not all that long ago), I met a borrower and her Realtor at Starbucks. When we left, the Realtor told the borrower to make sure she had her copy - and she held up the CD. The Realtor barely blinked and said her brokerage (a BIG name) uses CDs whenever possible. Maybe CA is more green-minded than other places (we're alot more everything than a lot of other places!) - but that's the main reason I offer it. Of course, CDs are plastic - but everybody always comments about how we "saved a tree." It seems to be on people's minds. As to my other hiring agencies, if job order says print, I print. My husband worked up some spiffy adhesive labels with my company logo that I stick on the CD with borrower's name and date o signing. Also, I always print a paper copy of the latest HUD, net sheet, whatever, so they have something to argue with their LO about and make notes on - and if there are any first payment coupons I print a copy so it's handy for them.

Reply by PAW on 1/22/10 8:26am
Msg #318990

As others have said, it's a lender/TC requirement. The law specifies certain documents that must be provided to the borrower, homeowner and/or buyer, but the rest is up to the ones that hire us. As far as the law is concerned, it may be construed as UPL if the signing agent determines that a document is not provided to the signer. Don't take the chance - give them everything.

As for HELOC documents, I believe only Texas statutes have the requirement that a copy of all executed documents must be provided at closing. Of course this raises a couple of issues: (1) when is the "closing"? Is it when the documents are initially signed by the borrower, or by the lender at disbursement?; (2) Many documents need to be executed by both the borrower and the lender. So providing a copy at the signing may not be truly providing a copy of the "executed" document. IMO, a copy of the executed copies means copies of the signed, sealed and dated documents showing seals and stamps.

Reply by Dave_CA on 1/22/10 10:47am
Msg #319021

Since CA is an escrow state and I'm not the "Closing Agent" I don't think this applies to us. Having said that I always provide the borrowers a printed copy of the full package.

Reply by Doris_CO on 1/22/10 1:19pm
Msg #319045

Technology changes so quickly in our world now but the borrower will always be able to access the printed copy.

Reply by Lynne/OR on 1/22/10 2:03pm
Msg #319052

I had a major ordeal regarding this issue and FASS!!! I usually print all copies for the BO, but one night I had received docs late, didn't have time to print the entire package so I defaulted to the CD method. First American Title in Oregon uses CD's for ALL of their files, so I decided doing in once was not going to be a big issue. Borrower just so happened to be a Wells Fargo compliance officer and complained to FASS that she did not have all hard copies. They submitted a "quality issue" for me, and when I tried to dispute it, dropped me from there system completely, I was utterly shocked. I have never experienced a company this unprofessional and rude!!