Posted by Jena Thomas on 1/21/10 12:10pm
Msg #318799
newbie question...
I have a modification where the young lady who is signing is the power of attorney. I would like to know
Does she sign her name or the two individuals names printed on the paperwork. Also how exactly does she sign?
Also, do I need a copy of her power of attorney paperwork? Do I need to make a copy of her I.d.? Do I need to include any
Other forms with the paperwork besides what was sent?
| Reply by Cari on 1/21/10 12:13pm
Msg #318802
call the company that hired you.... n/m
| Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 1/21/10 12:15pm
Msg #318803
Re: call the company that hired you....
Do call the company that hired u. I do keep a copy of poa for my records.
| Reply by PAW on 1/21/10 12:21pm
Msg #318805
Re: call the company that hired you....
? Ilene. Why do you keep a copy of the POA? It is meaningless to the notary. Does MD require the notary to keep copies of underlying documents?
| Reply by PAW on 1/21/10 12:20pm
Msg #318804
Well, first, a person is not a "Power of Attorney." The document is the Power of Attorney naming someone as their Attorney-In-Fact. It is important that you know and understand the difference.
As for signing, it is up to the lender and/or title company to provide proper instructions on how the AIF is to sign the documents. More often than not, in my experience, the AIF signs their name followed by "as attorney in fact for <grantor's name>" or their name followed by "for <grantor's name>, as his/her attorney in fact."
Yes, you need to ID the person (the AIF) who is acting on behalf of the principal. They are the ones signing the documents.
Check you state laws, but I don't think you need to have or even see a copy the POA as it is the AIF that is making the statement that they have the authority. Also, check to see how IN handles the acknowledgments when one person is signing is the represented capacity of an attorney-in-fact. Some states require the capacity to be shown, while others do not allow capacity to be included in the certificate. Also, be aware that an attorney-in-fact cannot make a sworn statement on behalf of the principal. The AIF can only swear (or affirm) to facts that they personally know.
| Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 1/21/10 12:37pm
Msg #318810
<<Also, be aware that an attorney-in-fact cannot make a sworn statement on behalf of the principal. The AIF can only swear (or affirm) to facts that they personally know.>>
Well - good luck with that. The worst notary battles I have ever fought (and I've lost every one, as well as any future business) have been with lenders/SSs/TCs that can't understand why an AIF signer cannot take an oath swearing to the truth of facts that they cannot possible know - yet they want that jurat signature notarized....or else. Furthermore, I had some blowhard TC guy who said he was a former attorney, on the board of the NNA, etc. tell me that with a power of attorney one can swear to anything and do anything, for the principal, including vote and testify in court.
| Reply by PAW on 1/21/10 12:47pm
Msg #318812
No problem enforcing that 'rule' here in FL. The FL Bar issued strict guidelines in the use and preparation of a Power of Attorney. Part of the guidelines that were adopted by the Florida Supreme Court states, in part:
"An attorney-in-fact may not sign a document stating that the principal has knowledge of certain facts. For example, if the principal was a witness to a car accident, the attorney-in-fact may not sign an affidavit stating what the principal saw or heard. An attorney-in-fact may not vote in a public election on behalf of the principal. An attorney-in-fact may not create or revoke a Will or Codicil for the principal."
Chapter 709 of the Florida Statutes contains the full statutory law on Powers of Attorney.
| Reply by PAW on 1/21/10 12:54pm
Msg #318813
Specifically ...
F.S. 709.08(7)(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of this section, an attorney in fact may not:
2. Make any affidavit as to the personal knowledge of the principal;
| Reply by rengel/CA on 1/21/10 12:57pm
Msg #318814
Attornies, as well as TCs will tell you ANYTHING to get what they want to happen. They do not keep up on notary law, but will swear to you that (insert what they want) is legal and the way to do it.
We have to keep up on notary law and know what we can and cannot do. It is our butts on the line, not theirs and I have not met an attorney or Loan officer that I am willing to go to jail for.
My .02
| Reply by Bob_Chicago on 1/21/10 1:06pm
Msg #318815
Just for discussion purposes, what if the AIF has personal
knowledge of the facts in the affidavit ?(eg. spouse acting as AIF for Name/signature aff, occupancy aff, survey aff, E & O, {which is frequently set up for a jurat, when should actually be an ack} etc. )
There may be cases of "wrong" vs. " REALLY WRONG"
| Reply by PAW on 1/21/10 1:29pm
Msg #318824
Re: Just for discussion purposes, what if the AIF has personal
If that's the case, the AIF can make a PERSONAL affidavit (swearing or affirming) to the facts, but cannot make the affidavit for the principal. Thus a wife (or husband) can sign individually for themselves, but not for their husband (or wife).
Also, under FL law, a notary cannot take an acknowledgment if an oath is required. (F.S. 117.03) So, if the signer (affiant - deponent) is required to sign under oath, an acknowledgment would not be allowed. And if the signer was acting as the AIF for the signer (affiant - deponent), the AIF could not so sign since an AIF can't swear to certain facts that the affiant - deponent must swear to.
In the case where an acknowledgment should have been used instead of a jurat, the AIF certainly can sign for the principal, but the notary would be not be able to complete the jurat and cannot change the certificate to an acknowledgment unless directed to do so by the document originator, custodian or recipient.
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