Posted by SDNotary/CA on 7/10/10 3:23pm
Msg #344471

HELP! Need some help and advise.........

Here is the story......got a call to do an overnight doc signing.....did the signing on Fri. 7/2. Was told it was a Provident signing and it had to be perfect. Completed the signing and used the rescission calendar I had which matches the calendar on this site, meaning the right to cancel date is 7/6. Got a call on 7/7 and was told I used the wrong date and return to the borrower and have them resign a RTC. Did that and got another call on 7/9 from the SS and was told they were redrawing the entire package she was getting charged $300 for the redraw of the package and I had to forfeit my entire fee, they would email me the docs and I need to go back to the borrower and get the entire package and basically eat the cost all due to the RTC being wrong. Low and behold I got the settlement statement and it is very different from the first statement that was signed. The major difference I noted was cash from borrower was checked in the original and now cash to borrower is checked with the same amount or very close to it (close to 1K) BTW the loan was for 300K. I don't yet have a copy of the original settlement statement since the docs were overnight but plan on getting a copy from the borrower. Hope this all makes sense. Trying to keep it short. Any advise and comments would be greatly appreciated.

Reply by James Dawson on 7/10/10 3:31pm
Msg #344473

So Joyce what are you asking? Should you go back out and resign knowing you're not going to get paid? Answer...who else can they call to do it free?

Reply by Yoli/CA on 7/10/10 3:48pm
Msg #344474

Signing on 7/2, rtc s/b 7/6. Signing on 7/7, rtc s/b 7/10.

When you went out 2nd time, did they just have you sign a new NORTC? No other docs? Maybe escrow goofed on second trip and should have had additional docs signed (not just NORTC).

Signing taking place days later may change the topography of the funds. ie. More days of interest, insurance, etc.

Just a few scenarios. I'm thinking that not all required docs were signed on 2nd date and escrow needs a scapegoat .... JMHO

Reply by SDNotary/CA on 7/10/10 3:56pm
Msg #344476

They just had me sign a new RTC, that's it.

The numbers just don't seem to add up. The original settlement statement had the borrower writing a check and now the borrower is getting the same amount back. I guess I need to compare the statements which I can't do at this point.

Thanks for your input.......I really do feel like a scapegoat, now it's just proving it!

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 7/10/10 3:58pm
Msg #344477

I think the issue on the RTC is that 7/5 was considered the legal FEDERAL holiday, so last day to cancel was 7/7, not 7/6. someone was using the wrong calendar.

Provident would ask for a full re-draw when rtc is incorrect and they will REQUIRE that the title co/broker eat the fee, this is very typical of them even when it is their error, they want someone else to pay for it. As for the HUD, broker probably had to make concessions as well as title co, to make Provident happy, therefore borrower benefits financially.

So - just make it right, signing agents should know RTC dates and if there is a question, call the signing company.

Reply by James Dawson on 7/10/10 4:00pm
Msg #344478

Make it right, even though they told her she must forfeit her entire fee???

Reply by CopperheadVA on 7/10/10 4:15pm
Msg #344482

Not so sure about that - see Msg #343473 n/m

Reply by CaliNotary on 7/10/10 4:50pm
Msg #344490

I saw different lenders using different RTC dates this year

Bank of America was not counting Monday the 5th as a holiday, their loans come with pre-filled RTC dates and I did 2 signings where the 5th was the end of the rescission period.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/10/10 8:28pm
Msg #344509

Same story here....5th & 6th n/m

Reply by CopperheadVA on 7/10/10 4:10pm
Msg #344479

Provident IS very picky and it's been a while since I did one - I don't remember that they leave the RTC date blank, but I could be wrong since like I said it's been a while. If they DO leave the RTC dates blank, I'm shocked because they are soooooooooooo picky and that's one area that can go wrong, especially around a holiday and super especially around a holiday that occurs on a Sunday.

I do know that they will redraw at the drop of a hat and they will charge for it. I was supposed to do one recently but the docs were drawn for a date that the borrowers were not available. The LO told the TC to just have them sign a day early because he didn't want to incur the Provident re-draw fee. So this means the LO wanted us to forward-date the docs by one day. The TC knows I won't fudge the date on my notary certs so they took me off the job and I guess they found someone to do it because I never heard back about it.

I don't know what to tell you in your situation. You've already made one return trip for free as per the SS request and also had the RTC resigned as per their request. IMHO, the lender should have filled in this important date itself - it has never made any sense to me why they leave it blank sometimes. Provident is very, very picky and they can be unreasonable in rejecting docs. It hasn't happened to me yet with them, but there have been many stories on this board.

Let us know the outcome.

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 7/10/10 4:16pm
Msg #344484

Yes - FYI, on a majority of Provident loans, RTC dates are blank.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 7/10/10 4:32pm
Msg #344487

Not to be picky, but

I'd advise a dictionary for your advice. As for Provident, the one I did this week had an example of the proper dates and the way to do it, but left it to me to fill out. I found this kind of odd, that if you took the time to do an example, why not just fill it in the way you want?

Reply by Yoli/CA on 7/10/10 4:39pm
Msg #344488

Re: Not to be picky, but

Actually, as Gina stated, they do leave the RTC dates blank. However, they want the borrower(s) to fill in the blanks. I usually just write out the dates on a sticky post-it and have them copy.

Why Provident doesn't do it themselves, don't know. Guess they just want to be sure borrower(s) are truly aware of dates by doing it themselves.

Reply by SDNotary/CA on 7/10/10 4:41pm
Msg #344489

Re: Not to be picky, but

Thanks for all the comments (that I can spell)! At least I know I'm not totally in the dark, these were all the same thoughts going back and forth with me. I will probably do the signing and for free unless I can come up with something that is a clear error on their part. I really do appreciate this forum and have used it many times.

Reply by CaliNotary on 7/10/10 4:53pm
Msg #344491

The clear error on their part

was that the 5th was not an official holiday. There's no way you should forfeit your fee, let alone do that AND go back and repeat the signing for free.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/10/10 5:24pm
Msg #344494

Re: The clear error on their part

To OP: I agree - unless they are a super wonderful client and it's worth it to you to keep them happy.

If you search back to just before the holiday weekend, there was a thread on this topic here where PAW posted the actual text from the law where it stated that only the actual holiday (not the "observed" holiday) counted towards rescission days. (Sorry I don't have the message number, but you could find it just as easily as I could.) You might want to try sending them the text that explains how you came up with that date.

Before you do that, though, if you printed docs and still have the electronic copy, I suggest going back and looking through all your instructions - including closing instructions - to see if there was anything about which dates to use. The Provident loans I've signed recently all had a page specifying what dates *the borrower* should fill in on the RTC, but that came from the tc, not the lender. If there was no such information provided to you anywhere, then you have a strong reason to expect them to eat the cost. If they gave you dates but you didn't see it or follow it, then best to just bite the bullet and do it again on your nickel, imo. (But, if the latter case, I think you should at least get *some* compensation for a completed signing, if not for two trips.)

Reply by SDNotary/CA on 7/10/10 6:46pm
Msg #344501

Re: The clear error on their part

There were absolutely no instructions on what dates to use. When you post a completion there is a rescission calendar posted but there is no reference anywhere that would point you there until you post the completion. I had no reason to doubt the calendar I was using would not be accurate. I argued this point with the SS to no avail.

Reply by GWest on 7/11/10 10:59am
Msg #344541

Re: The clear error on their part

I handed a Provident loan on 7/1/10 and in the package they included the dates that the borrower was to fill in. (7/1/10 & 7/6/10).

Reply by Paul2_FL on 7/10/10 5:47pm
Msg #344496

The bottom line IMO is this.

1- If you like working with this SS you can make your case to them that you feel the error was Provident's but you are willing to do the resign fee free in order to maintain a positive relationship with them.

2 - If you don't like this SS, refuse to do the re-sign based on the fact that you already complied with their (SS) request.

In either case YOU will lose monetarily. In case 1 above you lose your original fee plus additional travel for the second RTC's and the print, travel, etc. fees for the third trip but you maintain a relationship with the SS for future business and learned a lesson regarding how Provident does business.

In case 2, you still lose your original fee plus additional travel for the second RTC's and your relationship with the SS.

Your decision....
BTW - I wouldn't get hung up on the differences in the HUD's. I believe Ocean Pacific in this thread gave an example of how this could happen.

Reply by Riley/FL on 7/10/10 6:19pm
Msg #344498

Call me cynical....

but something sounds off to me. I would do some covert investigating at the table when you have the docs resigned focusing on something other than the RTC. Maybe the BOs will casually offer up some info as to what is really going on. There are very few SS that I will take at their word, and unless this is one of those you truly trust, check into it.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 7/10/10 6:41pm
Msg #344500

First of all, you were correct on the RTC date - 7/5 was not a legal holiday, so it counts in determining RTC. If Provident wanted to extend the RTC by a day (and they have a right to do that), they should have included that information. Unless they specifically told you otherwise, you got the RTC date right.

Second, what you described (with the difference on the HUD from cash owed by borrower to cash paid to borrower) was not a redraw due to any mistake on your part - the numbers changed, and you should not have to take the hit for that.

Third, I would personally refuse to forfeit my fee AND go out yet again to have this package signed, especially if it was not due to any error on my part. Even if this is an SS you do business with regularly, they have to realize that this whole problem was not caused by something you did wrong - all they have to do is look at the HUDs to see that the loan was changed and THAT'S why it has to be resigned.

IMO, the SS is wrong for swallowing the charge-back and more wrong for expecting you to do the same. If they are willing to accept the charge-back because they don't want to lose a customer, fine - that's their decision. You shouldn't be penalized for their business decisions.

I would a) explain to them why the RTC date used was right (and send them a copy of the relevant regulation), b) explain to them that the HUDs were different, so this was not a redraw due to notary error, and c) tell them to find another notary who was willing to do this for free, because it certainly wasn't going to be me.

Reply by Riley/FL on 7/10/10 7:22pm
Msg #344503

"Second, what you described (with the difference on the HUD from cash owed by borrower to cash paid to borrower) was not a redraw due to any mistake on your part - the numbers changed, and you should not have to take the hit for that. "

Yep, who's to say this isn't just an SS using a redraw to make some $$$ by telling the notary "It was your fault so you have to do it again for free"? TCs pay high for those Provident signings if they want them done right!

Reply by LynnNC on 7/11/10 9:58am
Msg #344535

Recission calendar on this site is wrong for 7/02 closing

The recission date should have been 07/07, not 07/06, because 07/04 fell on Sunday and the holiday was observed by the federal government on Monday 07/05. Bill Harry for your fee.

Reply by LynnNC on 7/11/10 10:05am
Msg #344537

I'm wrong...7/05 was not the legal holiday...

...but it was when the holiday was observed by the federal government.

I don't have the time to look it up right now, but I believe there are some holidays, which when they fall on Sunday, the legal holiday is on Monday.

Reply by Dave_CA on 7/11/10 10:21am
Msg #344538

a definative answer

This was posted by PAW:
For those who aren't sure, 'observed' holidays ARE counted as work days. Case in point, July 4, 2010 falls on a Sunday. Independence Day is being "observed" on Monday, July 5. However, 7/5 is included as a day of rescission. Therefore, any loans signed on Thursday, July 1st, will have a rescission expiration at midnight, July 5th. Loans signed on Friday, July 2nd will have a rescission expiration at midnight, July 6th. And loans signed on Saturday, July 3rd or Sunday, July 4th, will have a rescission expiration at midnight, July 7th.

The following clarification of holidays that fall on specific calendar dates has been provided by the Federal Reserve Board:

Supplement I to Part 226-Official Staff Interpretations

Introduction

1. Official status. This commentary is the vehicle by which the staff of the Division of Consumer and Community Affairs of the Federal Reserve Board issues official staff interpretations of Regulation Z, as revised effective April 1, 1981. Good faith compliance with this commentary affords protection from liability under 130(f) of the Truth in Lending Act. Section 130(f) (15 U.S.C. 1640) protects creditors from civil liability for any act done or omitted in good faith in conformity with any interpretation issued by a duly authorized official or employee of the Federal Reserve System.

Section 226.2-Definitions and Rules of Construction
2(a)(6) Business day.
2. Rescission rule. A more precise rule for what is a business day (all calendar days except Sundays and the federal legal holidays listed in 5 U.S.C. 6103(a)) applies when the right of rescission or mortgages subject to §226.32 are involved. (See also comment 31(c)(1)-1.) Four federal legal holidays are identified in 5 U.S.C. 6103(a) by a specific date: New Year's Day, January 1; Independence Day, July 4; Veterans Day, November 11; and Christmas Day, December 25. When one of these holidays (July 4, for example) falls on a Saturday, federal offices and other entities might observe the holiday on the preceding Friday (July 3). The observed holiday (in the example, July 3) is a business day for purposes of rescission or the delivery of disclosures for certain high-cost mortgages covered by §226.32.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/11/10 12:20pm
Msg #344546

Per the FDIC ...

The FDIC’s own published definition of “Business Day” is:

“Business Day” Any day excluding Saturdays, Sundays
and legal holidays (standard Federal Reserve holiday
schedule)."

Moving next to the Federal Reserve Holiday schedule (at link below, dates through 2014), it states:

“…For holidays falling on Sunday, all Federal Reserve offices will be closed the following Monday.”

Their calendar shows Monday, July 5th as a banking holiday.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/k8.htm

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/11/10 12:22pm
Msg #344547

continued ...

As I MEANT to point out in summary - no wonder there's so much confusion. The FDIC doesn't make sense - leaving Saturday's out of their definition of "Business day" throws a fog over the rest of their standing.

That's why these things are left to the lawyers to figure out.

Reply by RJE/MI on 7/11/10 6:08pm
Msg #344551

Re: continued ...

IMHO I would go ahead and get the docs resigned for whatever reason they want. As long as you did your job correctly the reason for the resign is their problem and whatever side deal they made with their client has nothing to do with you. I would refuse to do this for free. By doing this for free you are encouraging them to continue to push us around. We are professionals and should be treated as such. If you did your job correctly, which it sounds as if you did then you owe them nothing more.

We must demand to be treated as the professionals we are and not some unimportant document singers. The more we stand up for our profession the more they will respect us.

I get so tired of signing services and TC talking to us as if we have no idea what were doing. We offer a very important service to the public and get very little $ for it.

By standing up for yourself you are showing them you know what you are doing maybe just maybe they will call you when they need to be sure that the job gets done correctly.

Doubt it though unfortunately.

Reply by JulieD/KS on 7/11/10 6:18pm
Msg #344552

Re: continued ...

I agree with RJE/MI and MikeC/NY.

If I knew that I had done the signing correctly, I would tell the SS that I would do the re-sign, but that my fee would be the same as the original fee and if they say they won't pay me for the first job, I would fax an invoice, and if not paid, I would start collection proceedings.

I'd make them send a new confirmation for the resign with my fee included and I would print out all correspondence on the matter and keep it for the rest of the year.

I've been doing signings since 2003 and occasionally some of these companies do try to bully me and I just won't take it. If I wanted to work for free, I'd go volunteer at the soup kitchen.

Reply by JulieD/KS on 7/11/10 6:39pm
Msg #344554

My b/f said...

I was discussing this with my b/f over chicken curry (he cooked it) and he said that if the original notary had messed up the package to the point of an entirely new package needing to be signed, WHY WOULD THEY HIRE THE SAME NOTARY?

If a notary is inept, surely they would hire someone else to redo it.

I think the notary should be paid for the first job and for the resign. If you don't get paid, email me. I have a collection letter you can use. In the meantime, keep track of the name, address, phone number of the title company, lender, etc, so that if you need to walk over some heads to get paid, you'll have the means to do so.

Reply by Paul2_FL on 7/11/10 11:05pm
Msg #344565

Re: My b/f said...

I agree that the notary SHOULD get paid for the first job and the resign but doubt very seriously payment will be made based on the comment in the original post:

"the SS and was told they were redrawing the entire package she was getting charged $300 for the redraw of the package and I had to forfeit my entire fee".

This situation still boils down to a basic business decision where the SA has to make a choice. She can dump the SS and chase them for payment until the cows come home or absorb the costs in the interest of future business. The latter of course would be based on what the current relationship is!

Reply by MikeC/NY on 7/11/10 6:43pm
Msg #344556

Re: Per the FDIC ...

Neither of these have anything to do with the definition of "business day" as it applies to rescission. The Federal Reserve is very clear on which days count and which don't when calculating the rescission period (PAW posted the relevant sections of the regulation a while ago); whether or not the Fed offices and banks are open on a specific day isn't a factor. If there's confusion, it's because people don't know the right place to look for the answer.

It should be the lender's responsibility to indicate when the rescission period ends, since they have the right to extend it beyond 3 business days. The OP calculated the right date, it just wasn't the date that Provident wanted to use. Unfortunately, they neglected to communicate that fact. Can we charge extra for mind-reading services?

This could have just as easily gone the other way, with the notary mistakenly counting 7/5 as a legal holiday and extending the rescission period by a day while the lender was calculating it correctly...