Posted by Marian_in_CA on 7/20/10 1:20pm
Msg #345722

So I went to Jail this morning...

... and I swear, what are all my local fellow notaries doing?

I was at the Immigration Detention Center, meeting a lawyer and his client. On the guy's check-in form, they wanted to stamp my seal on the back and draw a line through it for his file.

I refused to let her do it... and she got kind of upset with me saying, "We do it for every notary that comes in here, they all let us do it."

SERIOUSLY???

What part of this don't they get?

"A notary public seal and signature cannot be affixed to a document without the correct notarial wording."

So I pulled out my handbook and showed her and she said, "Well, I don't know... nobody's ever said, 'No' before."

When I got there, I always hand them my business card, my ID and a 1/4 size laminated copy of my commission. Isn't that enough? If they want to inspect my seal... fine, but use it? HECK NO! Especially not if it's going to be kept in a detainee's file. They can copy all the the stuff if they want... but they can't have my seal.

So, why are others doing this? I seriously don't get it. A copy of my commission should be good enough...and has enough information for them to verify me.

The lady in the window even went so far as to tell the Deputies that I was refusing to "cooperate" with them and to pay closer attention to me. Seriously?

I'm thinking I need to write a letter to the guy who runs that place... and include a reference to my favorite CA notary law- Gov't Code 8225a: "Any person who solicits, coerces, or in any manner influences a notary public to perform an improper notarial act knowing that act to be an improper notarial act, including any act required of a notary public under Section 8206, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor."

Reply by Negrete on 7/20/10 1:30pm
Msg #345724

Here are the key words Marian. ( knowing that act to be an improper notarial act )

The deputy did not know it was an improper act, therefore would not have done anything wrong. She is only asking you to do what the other notaries have done that are not as knowledgeable as you are with CA notary laws.

Not saying what the deputy did was right, just that they know not what they do sometimes.

Anthony J Negrete

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/20/10 1:38pm
Msg #345727

Well, what I meant was that in my letter I'd mention it... (with copies of the handbook of course) so they would know for future reference.

Thing is, even after I showed this lady today (not a deputy), she still huffed and puffed about it as if she were going to get in to trouble for not getting a copy of my seal. That's when she told the deputy to "watch" me a bit closer.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 7/20/10 1:47pm
Msg #345731

The key here is that the deputy did know because Marian showed her the code. Having been in Marian's situation several times tho, I can see how notaries - knowledgable about notary law or not - would cave. These deputies are used to getting their way and having people do what they tell them to do - including pesky notaries. I think they treat the attorneys the same way. Anyway, I don't even carry my seal into the jail - cos the only things they allow in (besides me) is my journal and the document to be signed (no staples or paperclips, either). They provide the pen after you pass security.

Reply by James Dawson on 7/20/10 1:39pm
Msg #345728

All I've ever had to do was give them my commission # when I make the appointment to see the inmate. I assume they verify it but I have never had any issues up here.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/20/10 1:43pm
Msg #345729

They've never asked for my seal before there, either. She said it's a relatively new procedure... and since I was out for a bit after my surgery, it makes sense that I didn't know of the change.

Thing is... it's a Federal Detention Center... but it's essentially run by the County Sheriff. The Feds lease the property. So their procedures there are a bit different than other county or state lock-ups.

Either way... they're still not getting my seal. I'm just amazed that any other CA notary would actually allow it.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 7/20/10 1:47pm
Msg #345730

Just curious, Marian, as I have enough trouble keeping up

with IL law, but if appears that CA NP law states,
"A notary public seal AND signature cannot be affixed to a document without the correct notarial wording."(emphais added)
just wondering about the word "and" You obviously use your signture without your seal in normal life situations. Are you sure that it is illegal to use your seal without your signature for
the purpose of showing that it exists or what it looks like when stamped. Do not see why your seal impression on a piece of paper, clearly voided with a line , and without your signature being present, could be misused or would constitute a violation of the intent of the CA law cited.
Another example might be checking to see if seal needs re-inking when it hasn't been used officially in a while.
Seems to me that the intent of the law would be precluding the use of NP's signature
AND seal to "enhance " a document without the use of required NP wording, or could be used fraudulently by later forgeing the NP's signaturee.
Just sayin'.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 7/20/10 1:52pm
Msg #345732

Interesting, Bob

When asked for a copy of my seal, I have given it with a clearly voided line through it to satisfy a hiring party.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/20/10 2:19pm
Msg #345734

Re: Just curious, Marian, as I have enough trouble keeping up

You make a good argument, Bob... what you say makes sense. I'm not sure if you're right or not, honestly... as specific as California is, some things are just ambiguous.

In the case of this particular form, my signature is on it... both in the form of a photocopy of my ID as well as an inked signature for check-in purposes. Maybe I should have been a bit more clear about that. So if she were to have stamped my seal... then both items would have been present.

I do sample my seals all the time for maintenance purposes... but I shred and burn them afterward. Anal? Probably... but I'm really careful about any impression of my seal.

I never give samples of my seal to lender/TCs or signing services. Not even voided out ones. I'm always happy to give them a copy of my commission, though.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 7/20/10 2:31pm
Msg #345735

FWIW: I once asked the CA SOS...

The answer was yes. It can be used alone as long as you void it out.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/20/10 2:43pm
Msg #345736

Re: FWIW: I once asked the CA SOS...

Thanks... that's good to know.... although I'm not comfortable doing it myself. Maybe I'll call them too and ask about stamping it "alone" and voided, sans signature.

As I said in this case, though... my signature was present on the paper, too.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 7/20/10 2:59pm
Msg #345737

Re: FWIW: I once asked the CA SOS...

You said they wanted you to stamp your seal on the back of the form - was your signature going to be on the back off the form also? If not, it's not the same thing as having your seal and signature present. You may be reading it too literally. Maybe that's something else to ask the SOS.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/20/10 3:07pm
Msg #345741

Re: FWIW: I once asked the CA SOS...

Actually THEY wanted to stamp it for me after inspecting it. She was going to put it on the front but it was too big because I handed her the round one instead of the rectangular one.

Had it been the rectangular one, it would have been on front.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 7/20/10 4:21pm
Msg #345755

Re: FWIW: I once asked the CA SOS...

Ah, that changes things.

It would still be nice to get a clarification from the SOS about what that statute actually means. Do they just want you to avoid giving the appearance of a notarization? If do, can you still have both elements on the same document if you cross through the stamp and write VOID above it?

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 7/20/10 3:03pm
Msg #345740

Re: FWIW: I once asked the CA SOS...

Which SOS did you ask? I asked in 2005 and was told no.

After that, I ran it by my attorney, showed him the letter from the SOS and he said he would check on it. Called me back and said it depended on who you asked in the SOS's office. Nice.

For the record, I don't give a sample, voided or not. I don't take a chance in the gray area.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/20/10 3:07pm
Msg #345742

Re: FWIW: I once asked the CA SOS...

Thanks, Glenn... I knew I wasn't the only one out there. I was beginning to second guess my sanity for a minute.

Reply by rengel/CA on 7/20/10 3:22pm
Msg #345744

Sorry, No Can Do

From the 2010 California notary Handbook, page 7

"A NOTARY PUBLIC SHALL NOT USE THE OFFICIAL SEAL OR THE TITLE NOTARY
PUBLIC FOR ANY PURPOSE OTHER THAN THE RENDERING OF NOTARIAL
SERVICE. (Government Code section 8207)"

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/20/10 3:26pm
Msg #345745

Thanks, rengel!!

I knew I missed that reference!

It's been a very long morning for me.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 7/20/10 3:46pm
Msg #345748

Another reason why, except for the wonderful people

(especially NOTROTERS) and the great weather, I am happy NOT to live in
the Golden State.
Understand that CA NP seals have a secret chip installed that notifies SOS if seal is used improperly. Balck helocopters are immediately dispatched, and , soon to be out of work,
SOS operatives beat the offending notary soundly about the head and shoulders, with a damp jurat.
Have a great day, all, have to get to work.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 7/20/10 3:54pm
Msg #345749

Does it count when your grandson takes your stamp and

stamps his hands and forehead?? He did this one time. Have pics to prove it. He was just so darn cute when he did this.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/20/10 4:19pm
Msg #345754

LOL, Bob. Sadly... that's not too far from the truth if some

certain people have it their way in this state.

For me, it's a mixed bag... I hate all the rules .... but I also like them... at least for Notary work anyway. It actually really helps protect us in the liability department.

Reply by Maureen_nh on 7/20/10 11:25pm
Msg #345803

Re: Just curious, Marian, as I have enough trouble keeping up

I haven't read though this whole thread, but from my experiance , many government agencies just want your notary stamp, don't give a hoot about the law and then another arm of the gov't can turn around and slam you.

Reply by Les_CO on 7/20/10 5:15pm
Msg #345766

I have some not very relevant questions, comments: Firstly I’ve tried to stay out of jail all my life. Secondly what motivated you to do this? Did you get paid? Was it more than $1000? I know why attorneys go to jails, I sort of can understand why Priests, Rabbis, Ministers may go… But notaries? Yes there is a need, but as for me… I’m not a charity, I turn down well paying (more or less) signings that are not convenient, or close. I do hope you’ll be rewarded in the hereafter (or better yet now) but as for me. To jump through the hoops, and take the t-i-m-e to go do a prison notarization?…. For less than the price of a soda? Or a steak dinner for that matter….NO….I’ll pass

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/20/10 11:52pm
Msg #345807

Well... this is an immigration detention center less than 10 miles from where I live. This particular jail is much more laid back, and it's not at all scary or weird.

Much like other notaries who go to the jail in CA, I charge an hourly mobile service rate, minimum of an hour charged. All notarizations are included in that cost. Essentially, I "no charge" in my journal for them for the notarization. The cost is solely to cover my time in going to them. The average visit there is 45-60 minutes from parking the car to leaving the parking lot.

I met an attorney there today, because his client needed some court paperwork notarized. I was there a maximum of 45 minutes, and the attorney had a check made out for me when I got there.

It pays WAY better than loan work when you work out the hourly costs.... and (at this facility) doesn't take a whole lot more time. The worst part is checking in with the clerk at the control office and waiting for them to bring the detainee to the visiting area. It's all behind glass/over counters. There aren't (or haven't been ) any searches or crazy stuff...and most of the deputies are very accommodating.

The detainees at this place are for the most part on their VERY best behavior. Most of them are scared and trying to avoid being deported so they are always very respectful. I've never once felt uncomfortable or creeped out there.

Reply by Les_CO on 7/21/10 9:20am
Msg #345822

Thanks for the info. At least you got more than $10, and you didn’t have to make ten phone calls, send six e-mails, two collection letters, and wait for three months to get partial payment, or nothing.

Reply by DogmongerCA on 7/20/10 5:58pm
Msg #345771

Right decision, wrong Government Code

See Government Code section 8207

A NOTARY PUBLIC SHALL NOT USE THE OFFICIAL SEAL OR THE TITLE NOTARY PUBLIC FOR ANY PURPOSE OTHER THAN THE RENDERING OF NOTORIAL SERVICE.

It is on page 7 of the 2010 Notary Public Handbook towards the bottom of the page and in all capitals:-)

Reply by Susan Fischer on 7/21/10 3:54am
Msg #345811

Nice to see you, DogmongerCA. Same law in OR. n/m

Reply by DogmongerCA on 7/21/10 8:54am
Msg #345819

I still lurk and read

Just don't post that much any more:-)

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 7/20/10 6:18pm
Msg #345777

I would do it Marian...write the letter girl! n/m

Reply by Mary Ellen Elmore on 7/22/10 2:34pm
Msg #345978

Way to go!

For a similar story concerning a lawyer-

Got appointed to represent a convict.

Sets appointment to go to prison to see said convict.

When he got there the guards told him the convict refused to see the new lawyer.

Drives back to office.

I am one of the attorney's secretaries. Next day I get a collect call from this convict that we had to take as we were still appointed.

Truth was the guards wanted him to sign a release stating he rescinded his right to have his conversation with his attorney private and gave permission for them video and audio record the meeting.

Several days later we got the original and one copy of the form filled in and signed by the warden and a guard w/o the convicts sig. Printed across in big letters was "Inmate refuses to sign. No appointment with attorney allowed."

Needless to say it was a big mess. The Warden and guards thought because they had that form, it was legal to do what they had done.