Posted by sn/oh on 7/19/10 5:18pm
Msg #345616

Strange request

I notarized a POA for somebody in jail. He gave his wife full POA over everything. She asked me what my privacy policy was if someone were to ask me under what conditions I notarized her husbands signature. I said "no one will ask me about that unless we are going to court". She assured me she was not going to court, she just did not want anyone to know he was in jail. Even when she needed two witness for the POA she snagged two people visiting their loved one in the jail that day. Well, today I get a call from a title company asking me about the POA I notarized. I checked the gentleman's ID and all of that was legit, but the title company wants me to sign a certification stating that I met with this gentleman in person. This is where I am confused. My stamp and date and signature says that I met with him in person. Has anyone experienced this before?

Reply by Stoli on 7/19/10 5:21pm
Msg #345617

They can request a copy of your journal if they question it. n/m

Reply by Roger_OH on 7/19/10 5:31pm
Msg #345619

Journals not required in Ohio...

so Sharon may not have one. I'd be asking title why they think the notarization isn't sufficient to prove that the signer appeared before you, which is kinda the basis for any notarization.

What is their "certification" document going to prove that your notarization doesn't?

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 7/19/10 6:27pm
Msg #345628

The request wasn't for a copy of the journal entry ...

They want a form signed stating that the client personally appeared. Your very notarization of the signature should be enough that the client personally appeared. It's the law even in Ohio .. I would not sign an additional form unless approved by my attorney.

Just to rehash the subject also, they can only request a photo copy of that one entry into your journal, not the journal itself. Plus on all requests, I always run it by my attorney ...... No authority has complete access to your journal in California. There seems to be a lot of misconception on that issue. I and many other notaries in SoCal have notarized documents for public figures and the privacy of people, whether they are famous or not is to be protected. I have actually heard stories of a police department or other authority flashing a badge and the notary handing over the journal. It doesn't work that way. It takes a summons for a photocopy of the specific act. I have already been there, done that.

Reply by Stoli on 7/19/10 11:09pm
Msg #345665

Actually, Glenn, I don't think so...

A Notary Public must respond to a written request by any member of the public for a copy of the transaction in the notary public's journal within 15 days.
Gov Code Section 8206(c) and 8206.5

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/19/10 5:28pm
Msg #345618

That's bizarre... the whole point of a notarization is that you met with the person face-to-face. You should tell them that you've already provided that to them.

Reply by sn/oh on 7/19/10 5:38pm
Msg #345620

I do keep a journal though it is not required in Ohio; but because it is not required and the whole Jail thing was so cramped and rushed, I did not follow my mind and have him sign my book. But even so it still seems that my notarization should be enough. I think after this I will have books signed rushed and all.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/19/10 6:05pm
Msg #345627

This goes to show why journals are so important... it really will help you out in even the most ridiculous of circumstances.

Reply by ohnotary on 7/19/10 8:34pm
Msg #345636

Re: Strange request Journals in ohio

I always keep a journal... That is what I call the Save our behind book.
I actually did have a case years ago when the borrower told the attorney at the lender his home loan was through that they did not sign. so it was requested that I show proof.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 7/19/10 10:05pm
Msg #345645

You notarized the guy's signature, and that should be all the proof they need. It would be nice if you had a journal entry to show that, but that's not required in your state.

Asking you to sign a certification is a little over the top, IMO - essentially, they are suggesting that you may have committed fraud. I would certainly sign the certification under court order, but not just because some pencil pusher at the TC thinks he needs it. I personally would just say no.

Reply by Stoli on 7/19/10 10:38pm
Msg #345653

The best reason to keep a journal...

She signed and thumb printed my journal...

I signed a loan with an agoraphobic three years ago, and have a subpoena for the 26th for my aggravation. I don't like to sign with credible witnesses, but in this case I made an exception.

She is now claiming, "... The acts in concert of defendants and each of them to perpetrate the resulting fraud upon plaintiff were done with malice, oppression and fraud, and as a result thereof plaintiff is entitled to recover exemplary damages pursuant to Civil Code 3294 for the sake of example and by way of punishing the defendants, in the sum of Two Hundred Fifty Thousand Dollars." Heck, the loan was $100,000.

The subpoena claims, "Now she claims that she didn't sign, was never told in a manner that was understandable to her what the loan would cost, or how the loan would be repaid, and was never involved in acquiring the loan, didn't understand the terms and wasn't part of establishing the terms….” Not signing, and not understanding are two different animals. Additionally, she claims to be disabled since 14-years old and never graduated from high school. Hence, she can’t read or understand.

The kicker for me is the VERIFICATION at the end of the subpoena:

“I have read the foregoing and know its contents.
I am the plaintiff. I am over the age of eighteen. I have read the foregoing document and know its contents. The foregoing is true and correct of my own knowledge except as to those allegations pleaded upon information and belief and as to those allegations I believe them to be true.
I declare under penalty of perjury.....:.

I suggest that only one of these claims is true; maybe she didn't read the subpoena either.

Thank heaven, I am not a defendant

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/19/10 11:03pm
Msg #345662

Re: The best reason to keep a journal...

Ugh... how crazy is that? Either she is or she isn't competent to sign a contract.

While I am usually really irritated about most laws in CA... I'm REALLY glad the notary laws are pretty strict. They are there to protect us. I love that they require us to get signatures, and sometimes thumbprints.

I wish more states would require strict journal keeping rules.

Stoli, at least you know that you can go in, present your evidence and be done with it. I can't believe the lawyers don't just get a copy of your journal and stipulate without you having to go in. I suppose they want to ask you questions, too.

Reply by Stoli on 7/19/10 11:19pm
Msg #345666

Marion, thanks, read on. I can't believe it.

I met with her, with her attorney, at her home, of course, last year. When I got out of my car, she waved and called me by name! Yeah, right, she didn't sign. I provided a copy of the journal entry to her attorney, and she didn't deny her signature or thumb print.

The deposition on the 26th is with the defendant(s) attorney.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 7/19/10 11:30pm
Msg #345668

Re: The best reason to keep a journal...

After all this drama, your only involvement is that she appeared before you, you verified that she was who she said she was, and (hopefully) you determined to the best of your ability that she knew what she was signing. All of the rest of it is BS, with her attorney trying to get her out of a bad deal. What's important to remember is that we notarize signatures, we don't "legalize" documents - unless she's claiming she never signed the documents, there's no reason for you to be involved.

Reply by NMS/FL on 7/19/10 11:24pm
Msg #345667

Just read the notarial certificate to the TC and emphasis the "....subscribed before me.." part. I'm sure that's a required part of the notarial act you performed. That should clear it up!

Reply by Stoli on 7/19/10 11:58pm
Msg #345670

No good deed will go unpunished. n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/20/10 4:28am
Msg #345686

not so strange, IMO

The wife is either buying or selling property involving the incarcerated spouse. The title company knows he's incarcerated - it's easily found public info, and they'd have no doubt discovered this during their search (which apparently this wife isn't aware of?).

This would put the gentleman at a high risk to be victimized by fraud - particularly if his property is being sold. I don't think asking for a bit of documented verification from you is all that strange or unreasonable - particularly when you consider how often fraud happens and how often it involves collusion with a notary public; also how often we hear of those who are simply clueless as to how to perform notarial services.

You could debate the letter of the law on this request (I'm not going there), you could hire an attorney, you could simply refuse and wait to see how far they'll go with their request - but for what purpose? If I didn't have an issue with the statement of facts, I certainly wouldn't have an issue signing to them.

Reply by GWest on 7/20/10 9:42am
Msg #345696

Re: not so strange, IMO

I agree with Renee. I have had many circumstances as an Escrow Officer that the TC would not accept a document, when it was recorded or obtained outside escrow, or without prior title insurance being issued. They would require a notarizied affidavit signed by the document signor (which had to be notarized by a notary known to the TC or within a title company office), stating the intent of what they signed, and that there were no funds presently due to them. If the original document was drawn and signed in the presence of an attorney or if the TC knew the notary that notarized the document, they may decided to proceed without this affidavit.

Reply by SharonMN on 7/20/10 9:55am
Msg #345699

Re: not so strange, IMO

I agree with Renee as well. Why on earth would you balk at signing a document that says you did your notarization in accordance with the law? With all the clueless notaries floating around out there, the title company probably just wants to be sure the wife didn't forge his name and hand it to her secretary to notarize later.

Reply by Lorie/OH on 7/20/10 11:59am
Msg #345713

If you think every notary in the state of Ohio is incapable of fraud, then don't sign a cert.
Not to sound too redundant, but if you met this man face to face then there is no reason not to certify to the title company that you did. Others in this forum are correct, the title company is protecting themselves making sure the POA is legitimate due to the widespread cases of fraud involving spouses/family members and unscrupulus notaries (not here, of course!). Keep in mind that when you visit someone in prison, your name is on their sign-in sheet and who you were there to see so you have additional proof you were there.

To certify that "on 'date' you met 'name' at the 'state prison name and location' and after verifying his identification by 'give ID type", 'name' swore under oath and you notarized a Power of Attorney document after he signed it along with 2 witnesses in your presence.

Anyone in this man's family can contest the sale of property, since he is in jail, and the title company just wants to be sure the POA is a valid document so they don't get sued.

Reply by Mary Ellen Elmore on 7/22/10 2:41pm
Msg #345980

I would send them a letter stating that my notarization was proof I had met with this man in person.

It really is not any of their biz where you met with him at.