Posted by Chakwaina on 7/29/10 5:37pm
Msg #346874
Would you have done this one?
Had a VA Re-fi, ARM, unmarried man w/ girlfriend having vested interest in property, only he applied for loan.
No contact with BO before hand per requirements of lender, not even for directions.
Strict instructions that I am there to notarize only. Volunteered my normal fee & pays half for no shows, ¼ for no sign.
Go out. Gentlemen is 82yo veteran.
I am informed upon arrival that the gentleman will read the entire pkg, then the girlfriend, then the girlfriend's son. Son is summoned from his apartment in basement.
I pull important docs that generally satisfy BO's (TIL, HUD, Payment LTR, etc.) Explain the RTC. At this point son says, "Well, since you have 3 days to cancel, I have some errands to run. I'll read them over later." And leaves.
Gentleman is reading over the docs. An hour in the girlfriend reminds him of the RTC and suggests they go ahead and sign.
He gets upset with her and tells me, "Well then, you just leave and come back in 3 days and I'll tell you whether or not I'm gonna sign them."
I again explain the RTC goes into effect when he signs the docs. That if he doesn't sign, the lender may have to re-draw the documents and start over.
Now we are an hour in to 149 pages and he has only read about 35 pages.
Call SS. They have me call LO. He talks to gentleman and re-explains the RTC and the gentleman says he understands. I talk to LO and he tells me that the gentleman is going to start signing.
Nope. Gentleman tells me again to leave and come back in 3 days. I and girlfriend re-explain it does not work that way.
I noticed at least 3 other issues with short-term memory not being there. Just make a mental note of that.
As he is reading the instructions to fill out the W-9, I excuse myself to the front porch and call SS again. Explain everything to him, we are 1½ hours into this and nothing is signed. SS has LO call back.
As I go back into house, girlfriend meets me in the living room and says, "He recently had a stroke and it has really affected his mind."
At this point I decided I can not do this.
LO is on phone with gentleman and asks to speak to me. LO is polite but says to leave the docs they will give them a few hours and send another notary out (I had other appointments). Then tells me, and he was polite about it, "You need to have more patience with a veteran."
I happen to be a Vet myself, my Daddy was a Vet, my husband is a Vet, my grandfather was a Vet, all my paternal Uncles were Vets, my paternal g-grandfather rode with Teddy Roosevelt and the Rough Riders in Cuba. (Told the SS about this comment but said nothing in reply to the LO.)
I also noticed that this was not only an ARM but a reverse amortization!
I have voided the entries in my notary journal and noted the above happenings.
What would you have done?
| Reply by BossLadyMD on 7/29/10 5:40pm
Msg #346876
left after the FIRST phone call, you're better than me n/m
| Reply by James Dawson on 7/29/10 5:48pm
Msg #346877
I would have beat BossladyMD to the car.
| Reply by PAW on 7/29/10 6:04pm
Msg #346879
I would have left a lot earlier too.
>>> I also noticed that this was not only an ARM but a reverse amortization! <<<
I think you mean a "negative amortization". Typical with introductory rates for an ARM.
| Reply by goodgirl on 7/29/10 10:20pm
Msg #346921
You have much more patience than me. All the men in my family were veterans. Seems to me the LO should have been a little "kinder" to a veteran than selling him on something that was not a really good idea.
| Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 7/29/10 6:19pm
Msg #346880
I'd do something I learned on NotRot
When I am confronted with someone who wants to be a hardass about reading all the docs, I tell them something suggested by a wise poster here on NotRot: "I'm sorry, but I'm paid to watch you sign, not to watch you read; that's what the three days is for. I will be leaving in an hour regardless of how far along we are in the signing. I have another appointment."
I'm sorry I don't remember who contributed that gem so that I can give credit.
Let me hasten to add that I employ that nuclear bomb of signing technique only after I've let them read the note, HUD, TIL and RTC. When they've read those and appear ready to continue reading, I hand them the deed. If they start reading the deed, then the warning is dropped.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 7/29/10 6:34pm
Msg #346884
Adding to Hugh's comments, there's another I liked too:
"Ok, fine and dandy. I only charge $100 per hour wait-time, or you can take the three days..." or something like that.
(Sorry, can't remember who's comment I'm paraphrasing...but take a bow, please.)
There have been many RMs that required long patience, and, for the most part, I leave extra time knowing some of we older folks have "hurry-up" issues, and very rarely have problems.
This poor gentleman sounded scared, and I wonder...
| Reply by VA/VA on 7/29/10 7:27pm
Msg #346890
Re: I'd do something I learned on NotRot
I once told a signer "if you are going to spend 10 to 20 minutes for each paid, you are going to have to put me up for the night." She quickly started signing.
| Reply by Chakwaina on 7/30/10 4:00am
Msg #346937
Re: I'd do something I learned on NotRot
I did inform them I had another appt an hour and a half after the beginning time for theirs.
The SS said I should give them 2 hours to read and sign.
With 149 pages total and so few read at an hour in. . . . . .
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 7/29/10 7:45pm
Msg #346893
I would have packed up and left as soon as they told me that 3 people were going to read ALL of the docs before anything was signed. That's unacceptable, and an abuse of your time. I suspect the "no contact" instruction was because the LO knew there was going to be a problem.
Your patience is commendable, but there's no way I would be there 90 minutes later with nothing signed...
| Reply by Linda Juenger on 7/29/10 7:57pm
Msg #346896
I wouldn't have even been there to begin with much less
go through what you did. I will NEVER EVER again take an appt that I cannot contact borrower before the signing. That to me is just disaster waiting to happen and that's exactly what happened to you. Lesson learned the hard way. Sorry.
| Reply by Chakwaina on 7/30/10 4:03am
Msg #346938
Re: I wouldn't have even been there to begin with much less
I have taken several of these lately where I can not contact BO before hand-never had a problem.
This gentleman just could not understand the concept of signing meant he had 3 days to cancel. He would say he understood then express that it meant he had 3 days to read the docs before signing.
| Reply by MichiganAl on 7/29/10 8:16pm
Msg #346901
I got into this business at the suggestion of a very good friend who used to do this as part time income between selling houses. When confronted with someone like this, he used to say "I'm hired for an hour. At the end of that hour, I will be picking up the documents and heading to my next appointment. If we're not done at that point, then this will have to be re-drawn and signed at a later date." Worked for him. I've almost never had it come to that. I've either had the time to wait or been able to gently convince them to move along. The one instance where I couldn't wait I called the hiring party and asked them if I could leave the docs and come back in a couple of hours. They agreed, as did the borrower. Came back later and everything was good to go.
It is sort of an art getting people to move along without coming across like you're forcing them or rushing them. But sometimes there's just nothing you can do. So bottom line, in your situation where three people were going to read everything, the borrower wasn't going to budge, and you had other appointments and couldn't come back later, I probably would have hung in for the hour and then called it a day.
You were thrown under the bus. The l.o. had to know this was going to happened. If he's doing his job properly, he gets a copy package to the borrower ahead of time and avoids all of this.
| Reply by Chakwaina on 7/30/10 4:06am
Msg #346939
The gentleman said that they had received a call the day before saying a man was coming with me. ? ?
Have had this happen a lot.
The girlfriend said that someone had come out the day before and explained everything to them.
The gentleman and the son's girlfriend said they had received a phone call from someone explaining everything to them.
| Reply by Barbara A Demonte on 7/29/10 9:30pm
Msg #346911
"...I noticed at least 3 other issues with short-term memory not being there. Just make a mental note of that. ...As I go back into house, girlfriend meets me in the living room and says, "He recently had a stroke and it has really affected his mind."..."
Based on those two statements you made, I would have refused to continue with the closing even if he had been willing to sign the documents. The man obviously wasn't capable of understanding what he would have been signing and needed legal representation. Especially since he was vesting a non-relative as a co-owner of the property. This is a prime example of how people get ripped off when they become ill.
| Reply by Claudine Osborne on 7/29/10 9:36pm
Msg #346913
Good point Barbra..I was thinking the same thing. If you suspect the signer is not of sound mind then you should have stopped the process..Isn't this one of the things we are to watch out for??
| Reply by OR on 7/30/10 12:05am
Msg #346931
QUOTE: As I go back into house, girlfriend meets me in the living room and says, "He recently had a stroke and it has really affected his mind." That is your answer right there.
QUOTE: He gets upset with her and tells me, "Well then, you just leave and come back in 3 days and I'll tell you whether or not I'm gonna sign them."
It is agent the law to knowing notarize a signature for someone who does not understand what they are signing. He clearly did not understand the 3 day RTC. You were correct to call the lender to see if he could explain it to him. After talking to the lender he clearly did not understand the RTC because he sent you away to come back in 3 day. I would have said ok picked up the all the papers both sets. I would have told the Girlfriend that I could not leave any papers but that they could ask the lender to send them a set to read and left. When I was in my car driving back to the office I would have called the lender and let them know what happened.
JoAnn Baracosa
Simple Solutions Notary Service
| Reply by Chakwaina on 7/30/10 4:12am
Msg #346943
The LO is the one that instructed me to leave the docs-both sets. As they were going to have another notary go out in a few hours, thereby giving them time to read the docs.
| Reply by Chakwaina on 7/30/10 4:10am
Msg #346942
I had already stated I would not continue with the signing due to her statement.
The LO refused to hear this as it did not matter to him, he wanted me to leave the docs so he could send someone else out.
I did inform the SS of these concerns.
| Reply by jba/fl on 7/30/10 7:48am
Msg #346959
I have had LOs scream at me for not jumping through their hoops. I feel no obligation to do what LO's want, and don't care if they scream. My dealings would have been with the SS or TC, who, most times, are more neutral about the whole process.
Barbara has picked up on what I did also. This is, to my way of thinking, elder abuse on the part of the LO, who only wants his commission. It's nice the son left so that he couldn't coerce his dad. The GF comments are very weighty to me, and that would have been enough to scratch the whole deal. It is sad that the BO has problems, but it is not something that should become your problem.
I had 1 case as you have described and I was backed up by Susan of Expert Singings all the way. (I will be forever grateful for her that day) She paid me in full as she understood just what was going on and my ethical dilemma had put me against the wall. Fortunately, there was a lot wrong with my case as well and I had been able to talk to the lady in question alone, who, at one point, said she understood, but then looked at me very confidentially and said, "but I really don't." Being a Southern gentlewoman, I imagine she had been brought up to please everyone.
They had plenty of time in advance to obtain a POA for this BO but someone dropped the ball. Not your place to pick it up.
Sadly, someone else may not be so ethical and just do the job. Economic hard times make many choose to ignore signals.
I don't think I would have left the docs...
I am so sorry you had such an encounter; think of yourself as steel being tempered.
| Reply by Chakwaina on 7/30/10 4:08am
Msg #346940
The girlfriend had already been given an interest in the party at some earlier date via Quit Claim.
They had obviously been together for quite some time--but I do agree that is how many get ripped off.
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 7/31/10 4:42am
Msg #347125
I thought the exact same thing when I read that part too
I agree Barbara, this signing should have been canceled based upon his inability to understand what he would have been signing. Either the LO, in this case, was new and did not see the signs (I'm giving every inch I can here) or he didn't care and just wanted to close the loan at all costs. Either way, it is unacceptable.
The last 2 major issue signings I have had over the last 6 months have both been from the same 'no-contact' SS and lender. My last one, started off with a 20-25 min delay because they were not told that they would need a 2nd form of ID for this loan and they had to locate their SS cards, glad I didn't contact them to confirm what they needed prior to me showing up. BO actually stopped signing after about 45 min into signing (75 year old gentleman and veteran) and actually stated that he felt he "had really been forced" (bullied or harassed -- these are my words for better understanding because I cannot honestly remember if he used these exact words) into getting the loan by the LO. After discussing the issue with him, I informed him that if he still felt that way, I would end the signing immediately for him. He thought he had a fixed loan They were signing an ARM. The monthly savings were also much, much smaller (only $11/mo) than they were originally told.
I immediately got in touch with the SS and was told to call the 800#. After doing this we had to wait another 20 min or so for the LO to call back -- NO docs were signed while we waited. He was was told by the LO that "Yes, it is fixed for the first 3 years..."(I could overhear that much) After he spoke with the LO, I again asked him if he had all his questions answered and wanted to continue and that under NO circumstances should he continue if he still felt uncomfortable or that he was being "forced" into this loan. He stated that since he had 3 days to read over everything and that he would have someone else look over the paperwork during that time, he felt comfortable finishing the signing.
----------------------
I have informed that 'no-contact' SS company that in the future if I accept any orders, once docs are printed, my full fee is due regardless of outcome of signing. No-sign, no shows, docs incorrect, etc. means that my full fee is due and absolutely no deductions are allowed. Also, as with all my signings, my fee is never dependant upon the funding of the loan. I told them that they are hiring a professional and they should treat me with the same professionalism and courtesy that I show them.
I may not receive any more calls from them unless they get really desperate. At least I know that if I do, I am charging full price regardless and it is not my job to 'save' any loans for this company (that's what their 'professionals' are for). To be sure, I will offer professional service as always, but I am there for a max of one hour on their loans and no more. If their LO's cannot do their jobs they do not deserve to have others do the job for them.
IMO the lender from my last loan and the one in the OP both, if not the same company, should to be reported. It may end up that they may not have done anything illegal, but considering that these transactions seem to have red flags, which is enough by itself, but also involving veterans on top of that.
| Reply by SharonMN on 7/30/10 10:14am
Msg #346989
Regarding wanting to read all the documents, I tell people that I was informed that they were ready to sign, and if they are NOT ready to sign, I will ask that the appointment be rescheduled for when they are ready, and that they can ask their loan officer for a copy of the docs ahead of time so this doesn't happen again. I do mention the RTC, but I never pressure them into signing. I don't think I've ever had anyone not sign unless the deal was not what they expected, but "readers" often appreciate knowing that next time, they can request the docs for review ahead of time.
However, in this case, capacity was clearly an issue so I would not have notarized.
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