Posted by Marian_in_CA on 6/29/10 1:54pm
Msg #342982

CaliNotary makes a great point below about IDs/Sigs

In the thread about the jail notarization there was a question about the name on the docs vs the Prison's ID.

Calinotary said, "And technically, you really don't even have to worry about how the name is spelled on the docs, if you're that uncomfortable just notarize it the way it's spelled on the ID since that's who is appearing in front of you and we only notarize signatures, not documents."

That's absolutely true. At least, for California. What does it really matter if the name in the document is misspelled? What matters to us, as notaries, is that we are reasonably satisfied that the signature we're given matches the ID presented. We are not responsible for the content of the document. All we're directed to do is to not notarize an incomplete document.

So, what do I care if John Doe is the name on the document and Jane Doe signs it? I'm not notarizing John's signature... but Jane's. Our seal has no effect on the validity of the document, just the authenticity of the signature. That's backed up by the rigid rules we have for our certificate wording. The validity of the document is between the document maker/requester and the signer.

If the document is prepared wrong... it's not our fault.

Reply by PAW on 6/29/10 2:24pm
Msg #342989

From a notary perspective, I totally agree. We're only concerned with the person, the signature and the ID. But, we're there to be a Signing Agent too. As a signing agent, we should be concerned about the name the way they're spelled on the documents. Granted, we can't do anything about it, other than contacting the hiring agency, title company or lender and let them make a decision on how to go forward. So, from a signing agent perspective, I do care if the name on the document is John Doe and Jane Doe signs it.

Reply by dickb/wi on 6/29/10 2:45pm
Msg #342990

right on paul...my thoughts exactly........ n/m

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/29/10 2:53pm
Msg #342991

I would like to know in this case of Notary Vs Signing Agent "duties" who should prevail? Heaven help us that there should be a conflict but as mentioned by PAW, sometimes sh$$ happens. Who has the ultimate authority to make the call? The Notary or the Signing agent?

Thanks to CaliNotary for bringing this up.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/29/10 2:54pm
Msg #342992

Thanks also to Marian! n/m

Reply by CaliNotary on 6/29/10 3:13pm
Msg #342997

Ultimately we're notaries before we're signing agents, so that should always take precedence. I thought it was obvious that we should try get any known problems taken care of in advance, but when it's a situation where we have to make the call, you should do what you're required to do as a notary. It's not our job to make sure docs are prepared correctly, but it is our job to make sure things are notarized correctly.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/29/10 3:28pm
Msg #343002

Totally agree! n/m

Reply by PAW on 6/29/10 6:09pm
Msg #343033

I disagree. We're don't wear one hat higher than the other. IMO, the duties and functions of the signing agent is on the same level as that of a notary, in the signing situation, and are mutually exclusive. Granted, the duties and functions of a notary must conform to rules, e.g. statutes, laws, but a signing agent does also conform to the rules as set by statutes and laws and limited by contractual agreement. One function does not supersede the other. I figure about a 90/10 split between signing agent and notary. You can't wear both hats at the same time. Just look at the liability angle. As a notary, your liability is severely limited to the 10% of work product notarizing the signer's signature. The liability of a signing agent is huge. Not doing your job right may cost you more as a signing agent than doing the notarizations correctly. Faulty notarization often do not make the transaction invalid. But completing the RTC incorrectly certainly may invalidate the transaction. Would your Notary E&O Insurance cover you for that? I don't think so. Thus we must do BOTH jobs correctly.

Reply by CaliNotary on 6/29/10 6:54pm
Msg #343038

I don't think you quite understood the question Paul

Nobody is saying that we shouldn't do the loan signing correctly because the notarizations are the only part we need to concern ourselves with. James was asking (and correct me if I'm wrong) what do you do when you have to make a judgment call and the "notary" answer and the "signing agent" answer are two different perspectives? We all know that sometimes what we should do as notaries, and what the TC or lender wants us to do as signing agents, aren't necessarily the same thing. And usually those situations boil down to how much we're willing to bend or break notary laws.

Reply by PAW on 6/29/10 7:26pm
Msg #343049

Re: I don't think you quite understood the question Paul

I just don't see where the two would overlap, putting the notary signing agent in a position where the "notary" or "signing agent" answer would be different. The issue about the name as shown on the docs vs the name the signer has on their ID would not be a notary issue, but certainly would be a signing agent issue. Of course, the disparity would be an issue with the TC or lender, and thus with the signing agent, because the notary part must conform to the name on the ID. Lenders and Title Companies often get around the issue by using the Same Name Affidavit. As we all know, that is comfort for the signing agent, lender and title company but does nothing to satisfy the requirements of the notary. IMO, the signing agent is also charged with ensuring the names on the documents match the person who is signing them. Thus the signing agent (and lender and TC) should rely on the identification process by the notary, but has the capability of expanding on the identification; the Same Name Affidavit. This doesn't place the two at odds with each other, as both signing agent and notary are after the same end results. I guess I really separate the two jobs, even when communicating with lenders and title agents. I always try to make it very clear that something is an issue with one or the other, even though lenders, title agents and signing services try to blur the distinction. I think there is a fine line between the two jobs and very little, if any, conjugation.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/29/10 2:58pm
Msg #342993

Well, that's *if* we're acting as a signing agent.

From a SA perspective... sure, that's true. But I know that in most of my work these days, it's general notary work, not NSA work.

In the case below, they were talking about a prison, and I dunno about most of you, but I've never done a loan signing at a prison. That's always general notary work.

In the grand scheme of things... (for CA) we still aren't responsible for the content of the document in any way. So, if the document creator misspelled the guy's name, but the ID and signature match... what do I care about the typo?

Now, obviously I would always bring it up so they know... but it's not going to stop me.

If I have a document with a name John Smith Doe, but the guy signing it is John Smythe Doe... I don't care what the document reads. As long as I'm convinced that John Smythe Doe is who he says he is... we're good. And yes, for loans docs... that's a different story... but for general notary work, it isn't.

(Remember, though... we're talking CA here)

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/29/10 3:03pm
Msg #342994

Not to mention we have people here who can sign their name..

But have great difficulty reading it.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/29/10 3:05pm
Msg #342995

PS....

When I notarize signatures, in my certificates, I use the name on the ID that was presented to me and not the name that may or may not be in the document. It's not my job (as a notary) to make sure that those match. What I care about is that whoever is signing (or did sign) has a signature that matches the ID they give me... and that ID is one (in CA) we're allowed to use.

The only way I would care is in the case of a sworn statement and I had absolute knowledge that the person swearing/affirming was, for sure, lying.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/29/10 3:15pm
Msg #342999

Keep in mind...this was "a notarization"....not a loan

signing with TC/Lender involvement...it was "a notarization"....

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/29/10 4:01pm
Msg #343005

Re: Keep in mind...this was "a notarization"....not a loan

I just had one today. Lady selling her house in Ohio. Docs had Jane Anne Doe, ID had Jane Smith Doe. But her ID signature was Jane Anne Doe so it was fine.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/29/10 4:05pm
Msg #343006

I have to ask..

". Docs had Jane Anne Doe, ID had Jane Smith Doe. But her ID signature was Jane Anne Doe so it was fine. "

ID not issued in same name on docs, but because she signed it that way, it's okay?? I wouldn't accept that the other day. I made the lady prove to me that Jane Anne Doe and Jane Smith Doe were one and the same - then did the WTTA in my cert.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/29/10 4:11pm
Msg #343008

I don't know about Florida, but in CA... that's OK

For notarization purposes... we're not notarizing the name in the document. We're notarizing the signature of the individual signing the document.

Here's an example that might help. Let's say we have someone acting as POA. In CA, we don't certify capacity of the signer.... only the signer. We don't care what authority they have to sign a document. All we care about is the signature itself and if it matches the ID and the person appearing. If they need to add verbiage about signing as POA... that's fine and dandy to them, but as a CA notary, we don't care.

And, in our certificates, we only mention their name... not their title or capacity. This goes for loan docs, too.

Of course... as said, if we're hired as an NSA, things work a bit differently because we're taking on an additional role. But from a purely notarial perspective, it's absolutely okay, at least in CA. It appears that it's OK in FL, too, if Sylvia has done it.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/29/10 4:21pm
Msg #343012

Re: I don't know about Florida, but in CA... that's OK

Not concerning myself with the docs at all..I agree that's not important...BUT here's my brainblock...

Jane Anne Doe named in docs and has to sign as Jane Anne Doe....sooo..doc signature is Jane Anne Doe -....ID is Jane Smith Doe...no match EXCEPT she *signed* the ID, issued to Jane Smith Doe, as Jane Anne Doe or Jane A. Doe...

IMO that ID is not acceptable...

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/29/10 4:28pm
Msg #343014

Re: I don't know about Florida, but in CA... that's OK

But if she signs as Jane Smith Doe, and that's what her ID says, regardless of what the docs or signature block say... how is that wrong? If she signs it wrong, that's not the notary's problem. It *might be* the SA's problem if it's a loan package, but not the notary alone.

Now, if her ID says Jane Smith Doe and she signs as Jane Anne Doe, there's an issue because her signature (likely) won't match her ID. That's a different idea.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/29/10 4:31pm
Msg #343015

Re: I don't know about Florida, but in CA... that's OK

I agree Marian...that's why my example...she signed the doc JAD but ID was JSD....ID which she signed as JAD.....

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/29/10 4:39pm
Msg #343020

Re: I don't know about Florida, but in CA... that's OK

Right... but signatures can be anything we make them out to be. As long as the lady used the signature that's on her ID on the document, it should work... even if it appears that the signature on her ID doesn't match the printed name on the ID.

I mean, how can a guy who just squiggles a line as his signature be differentiated. As long as the signature on the document matches the signature on the ID, it's all good. Clearly a squiggled line signature isn't going to readable as anything other than a squiggled line... so are we supposed to turn him away because that squiggled line doesn't read a certain way?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/29/10 5:18pm
Msg #343028

Re: I don't know about Florida, but in CA... that's OK

She also had credit cards and insurance cards and voter registration card as the name on the docs and signature on license. While these aren't acceptable as primary ID, as her license was also signed with her legal middle name I accepted it. (The lady was well into her 70's)
I wish Florida hadn't put maiden name as middle name on drivers licenses.
As soon as I was able I had my drivers license changed to reflect my real middle name.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/29/10 5:28pm
Msg #343029

Re: I don't know about Florida, but in CA... that's OK

The maiden name as the middle name here drive me absolutely nuts!!! Especially when they don't take into account how this affects how they own the rest of their assets.....ugh

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/29/10 5:30pm
Msg #343030

Re: I don't know about Florida, but in CA... that's OK

And they usually don't know that they can now get it changed.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/29/10 5:13pm
Msg #343026

Re: I have to ask..

As used to be customary for Florida the middle name on her drivers license was her maiden name. But she had signed the license with her real middle name, which was the way the docs were drawn up. I wasn't acting as a signing agent, and I was more than satisfied as the ID signature matched the signature on the docs.

Reply by garland/CA on 6/29/10 4:26pm
Msg #343013

Well, lo and behold, ID's can be wrong too!

This whole ID thing can be a nightmare for us notaries. ID's sometimes have misspellings, wrong names, etc.

In the CA prison system inmate IDs are made up for the sole purpose of having a document notarized - they are destroyed that same day after the notarization is completed. They are temporary IDs - and it is stated on the card that way.
So, it can happen, as it did today, that the person preparing the ID makes a careless mistake. A corrected ID can be hopefully re-issued. And all is well.

I mention this mainly because we rely on the ID - as we should per our handbook, for the satisfactory evidence of identification - but that evidence may sometimes (rarely, perhaps) contain errors.

CA handbook states, "Identity of the signer can be established by the notary public's reasonable reliance on the presentation of any one of the following documents....."

emphasis on "reasonable reliance"

We use the paper identification documents that are listed in our handbook, or credible witnesse(s).
we do not second guess or assume, but we are also reasonable.
I don't want to go into the detail of how this issue was resolved today at the prison (not the typo issue brought up yesterday, another ID issue that came up today), however, I feel I had enough satisfactory evidence to properly identify the signer, and it is sufficient.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/29/10 4:32pm
Msg #343016

Re: Well, lo and behold, ID's can be wrong too!

I've found the the guys in prison have been well identified anyway. Well, except maybe for the ICE detention centers, but the regular jails/prisons? These guys have been printed and run through criminal systems. It's pretty reasonable to assume, even if there's an ID typo, that the guy in jail really is the guy who he is supposed to be.

Reply by garland/CA on 6/29/10 4:38pm
Msg #343018

Exactly Marian!

and that is where we use our reason and not get too hung up and forget our actual purpose as notaries.

heck, you call the SOS and they tell you they dont know! because 99.5% of the time we can be as bllack and white as the handbook, .5% of the time we just have to be reasonable or the job will never get done! Prison systems can fall into this .5% because inmates don't really have ID's like we do in the outside world.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 6/29/10 4:44pm
Msg #343021

Re: Well, lo and behold, ID's can be wrong too!

Not so in so-called branch jails, like county jails, city jails, etc. They don't necessarily know who they've got in there. That's probably why we are not allowed to use wristbands, etc. for ID. These people basically have no ID there unless a relative happens to bring it to you. But we can use ID from the CA Dept. of Corrections, because by the time the inmate reaches a state prison, it's pretty much like you said - they've been run through the criminal system by that time.

Reply by MW/VA on 6/29/10 9:24pm
Msg #343073

LOL, Marian. Good point! n/m

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/29/10 4:37pm
Msg #343017

Re: Well, lo and behold, ID's can be wrong too!

AND I think I mentioned y e s t e r d a y the PFN # ..IS what rules......

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/30/10 1:46am
Msg #343106

Just for the sake of argument...

"The validity of the document is between the document maker/requester and the signer."

Maybe it's because it's late or because my NSA hat is stuck on tonight for some reason, but there's a little piece of this that is gnawing at me - at least in theory, and especially when in a general notary capacity.

For the sake of argument, let's say that the document is a Grant Deed and that the document "maker/requester and the signer" are all the same person. For example, Joe Smith owns a property and James Smith is the person who appears before the notary. The GD he presents is transferring ownership from Joe Smith to James Smith and the signature line has Joe Smith's name under it (as one would expect). The person presenting the document has ID that says his name is James Smith. He requests an acknowledgment of his signature on that doc from someone in their capacity as NP only. The notary completes the acknowledgment, dutifully putting "James Smith" in the notary block - because that is the name (s)he is able to identify. What are the chances that this will be rejected by the County Recorder of name-your-county?

Sure this isn't our problem (and I've been that notary in slightly similar situations), but with all we hear about Recorders accepting whatever comes through, (and we know what happens in tc offices...etc. etc.), it makes me wonder how we help prevent fraud if we aren't comparing IDs to names on documents. Or do we only do that when we're wearing our NSA hats? I'm just sayin'...

(BTW, great discussion!)

Reply by LKT/CA on 6/30/10 2:24am
Msg #343108

I disagree

<<<What does it really matter if the name in the document is misspelled?>>>

*****Spelling definitely matters.*****

John Adams vs. John Addams - two different people

Kim Anderson vs. Kim Andersen - two different people

Bob Johnson vs. Bob Johnston - two different people

<<<So, what do I care if John Doe is the name on the document and Jane Doe signs it? I'm not notarizing John's signature... but Jane's. Our seal has no effect on the validity of the document, just the authenticity of the signature. >>>

The law looks at intent....the docs were intended for John Doe as it pertains to John Doe and NOT Jane Doe so Jane Doe has no business signing paperwork not intended for her. If Jane Doe is not the subject of such paperwork, she should not sign it. Anyone signing paperwork not intended for them (which to me screams "fraud") I guarantee you, I will not put my signature and seal on it. They can find another Notary because refuse to be a party to whatever they're up to.

I could not stand before a judge and say it is customary to notarize a signature on a document not intended for said signer. If their name isn't in and/or on it (spelled correctly or corrected on the document), the paperwork belongs to another.