Posted by MikeC/KY on 6/1/10 11:55am
Msg #339292

Notary Direct

I did a closing for them on 5/13/10 for $75 (with edocs). They are pretty cheap but they pay quickly and their packages are normally not too bad. Until now: this closing was 150 pgs + . It was BOA and of course their packages seem to be getting larger and larger. I have closed Countrywide/BOA signings for quite some time now. I have NEVER had to print the 40 plus pgs of instructions and have the borrower initial them. However, this title co. KSTREET TITLE, wanted Everything, instructions and all printed and initialed or signed. Note, this is NOT a BOA requirement as I have people on the inside at BOA. I printed everything but the instructions, like I normally do, and went to my closing. I had a great closing and the borrower's were very pleasant, despite so many papers. I dropped the pkg that night. The next day I got a call from Dawn Brasher @ Notary Direct and said I needed to go back out and have the instructions initialed. I explained that I have NEVER had to do that for any title company. She said the title company required it and it had to be done. I told her I was booked up solid that day and could not do it that day. She said to get with the borrower and work it out. She sent me the docs I needed to print, which I did print. I went back out to to BO home the next day only to be told that someone else had already been there to have them sign the instructions.
When I got my check today, it was for only $25. I called Dawn and was told that because of my incompetence, they had to pay someone else to go back out that day to have the instructions signed. Even though I went through all the loan papers, the other notary got more than I got for having the borrower initial @ 40pgs of instructions.
I told her to take me off their list. I have saved their butts many times with last minute, cheap closings. I have always had a good relationship with them, but I will no longer accept closings for them. I will also tell the other 15 or 16 notaries who work under me or through me to no longer deal with Notary Direct and Dawn Brasher!
Anyone else having trouble with this stuff or with Notary Direct?

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/1/10 12:01pm
Msg #339293

looks like good stuff for SC n/m

Reply by BossLadyMD on 6/1/10 12:03pm
Msg #339294

wow - what did the original instructions say n/m

Reply by PAW on 6/1/10 12:03pm
Msg #339295

Yes, some title companies are more anal than others. That's why I always print everything I get... twice, once for settlement and once for the borrowers. I've also had instructions from different title companies to have everything initialed that isn't signed ... everything!

Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 6/1/10 12:04pm
Msg #339296

You really sold youself short. I stopped cutting my fees a long time ago because there would always be problems that would take more time then it was worth. I'm sorry to say this but you asked for it, dealing with companies like Nations Direct is not worth your time, ever....

Reply by MikeC/KY on 6/1/10 12:27pm
Msg #339307

Ilene, it was NOT Nations Direct. It was Notary Direct. I would NEVER close for Nations Direct. I don't even see how those guys are still in business. Notary Direct usually pays very quickly and their packages, until lately, have been around 60 or 70 pages; not too bad. But now, they are with some new title company that is very anal and wants ink on everything. I would normally do Capital One closings for them and they are a cinch.

Reply by Lee/AR on 6/1/10 12:05pm
Msg #339297

So you're saying they hired 2 notaries to get 40 pages

initialed.... and didn't cancel one of them? They sent you the docs and, apparently, the other notary, too.

Reply by MikeC/KY on 6/1/10 12:29pm
Msg #339309

Re: So you're saying they hired 2 notaries to get 40 pages

They sent the other notary to get the instructions initialed (@ 40 pages). I have never printed them for BOA because they don't require them. This was a title co I had never heard of before that is just very anal.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 6/1/10 12:06pm
Msg #339298

You accept low-ball offers. Your profile states you are willing to be flexible with your fees especially with companies giving you volume.

And, now you want to complain?

There has been numerous postings regarding Notary Direct. The "search" orange button is your friend.

So very sorry you've been dealt a harsh lesson.

Reply by MikeC/KY on 6/1/10 12:30pm
Msg #339310

Thanks Yoli.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 6/1/10 12:06pm
Msg #339299

As I gather from your post, you were told in advance to print the instructions and have them initaled. You contracted to do the job for a certain amount of money. You did not do the whole job the way you were asked to do it the first time.

Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 6/1/10 12:25pm
Msg #339306

$75 including edocs totaling 150 pages? You have, according to your profile, been closing loans for more than 13 years, and you are charging fees that even newcomers would spurn?

What's next for you in trying to undercut other signing agents? Are you going to offer to wash the scheduler's car, do his laundry, maybe clean his toilets?

I'm sorry for being sarcastic, but there are so many things wrong with your post on so many levels it's difficult to restrain myself. Actually, as is obvious, it's impossible.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 6/1/10 12:19pm
Msg #339304

...the sad part is that the other notary sent back out

probably did it for $50!

This scenario is why I write over and over again, folks, DO NOT close for $75 unless its for across the damn street and still under 65 pages, with NO FAX BACKS.

Sorry you had to go thru that, but its a hard lesson learned right?

Look, some if not most, SS really don't care how loyal you may have been to them, or how many times you saved their a$$, so long as you do what you are paid to do, they'll be happy.
If you were instructed to have these papers initialed, what was the harm? Even though you know better.

Will they think of you the next time, eh, its a toss up and it'll come down to the cheapest price notary available that day. But they'll call you again as they seem to be desperate for nsa's nowadays.

And I agree that it is absolutely ridiculous to have 40 pages of instructions initialed. For what purpose? Utterly useless.

I don't work with companies that continue to low ball me and try to bust me down every cent and you should probably consider the same. I understand work is scare right now, but is the above scenario worth it....nope.

Reply by MikeC/KY on 6/1/10 12:37pm
Msg #339311

Re: ...the sad part is that the other notary sent back out

C. Rivera... Amen... I guess you live and learn. The closing was actually @ 10 mins away and I can normally do a signing in @ 20 minutes. For the lower fees, I do not explain anything. I just collect signatures and notarize. The SS get what they pay for. If I can print, drive, sign, and drop the pkg all in under an hour, $75 is not too shabby, IMHO. There are some closings that I get $150-$200 for that are just as close and take just as much time. So I figure you take the good with the bad and it all averages out in the long run. I am not normally begging for business, but I had always had a great relationship with Notary Direct and they pay in a week or two. So, all things considered, you do what you have to do, I guess is how I look at it.

Reply by Calnotary on 6/1/10 12:39pm
Msg #339313

Re: ...the sad part is that the other notary sent back out

YOU CAN NOT do a BOA loan in ONE HOUR from start to finish not even if the borrower and fed ex are next door from you. Are you kidding me?

Reply by jba/fl on 6/1/10 12:54pm
Msg #339316

Re: ...the sad part is that the other notary sent back out

Perhaps you can't, but I can. (less than 1 hour)

Reply by Calnotary on 6/1/10 1:00pm
Msg #339320

To: jba/f

I am glad you can do them for less than an hour. In my case it will be impossible to do a 150 page loan for under an hour's time from start to finish. It will take me around 10 minutes to just print them. Do you also do them for 75.00 with edocs?

Reply by jba/fl on 6/1/10 4:21pm
Msg #339354

Re: To: jba/f

Oh, my, do you charge that much? OH!

Reply by Kay/IL on 6/1/10 4:04pm
Msg #339353

Amen JBA!

So can I!

A huge chunk of B of A documents are general and specific closing instructions that can take up to a good 1/3 of the package. Plus, they often do not have documents that require initials on every page.

It seems to be some sort of SS or title company requirement for initials on all of the pages of the B of A closing instructions since I have never been asked to do with the companies I contract with.

Reply by MW/VA on 6/1/10 1:39pm
Msg #339327

"For the lower fees, I do not explain anything. I just

collect signatures and notarize. The SS get what they pay for."
You mean you adjust your level of service according to the fee? Are you kidding me?
IMO, if you're the one accepting lower fees, it should not be the borrowers who are being penalized. You obviously believe 100% in the "get what you pay for" philosophy. I'm having a hard time imagining that anyone would treat a signing that way.

Reply by MikeC/KY on 6/1/10 2:05pm
Msg #339331

Re: "For the lower fees, I do not explain anything. I just

Exactly. Go to Mcdonalds and 1) hope they get your order right 2) hope you get napkins 3) make sure you ask for ketchup, sauces, etc. (and sometimes pay extra for sauces) 4) stand at the counter or sit at the drive thru until your order is complete. it is a lot cheaper, but certainly has it's downfalls

go to TGIF, O'Charleys, Cheddars, etc. get hot food brought to you while you sit at a table sucking on sweet tea. Enjoy rolls while you wait. Can order appetizers to help you while your food is being prepared.
Enjoy a fresh hot meal prepared exactly how you want it. You will pay more. You will leave at tip. But it is a much better experience. You get what you pay for. TGIF will cost you a lot more than mickey d's but my oh my is it worth it?

I can get my oil changed at Jiffy Lube for $39.00. They will check my air, oil, filters, vacuum my car, make it smell good, etc.
I can go to walmart and get it changed for 16.95. The oil still gets changed along with the oil filter, but that is it; and I will probably wait a little longer at walmart than I would wait at the other place.

Reply by MW/VA on 6/1/10 2:15pm
Msg #339333

That may be true. IMO,the borrowers, however, shouldn't be

getting "fast food" when they've paid for "Outback".

Reply by MikeC/KY on 6/1/10 2:41pm
Msg #339342

Re: That may be true. IMO,the borrowers, however, shouldn't be

true, but I cater whatever the SS orders for the borrowers. A lot of SS instruct us not to explain docs anyway. Sorry, but this is a full time business for me and time is money. While I may accept a closing for a somewhat smaller fee from time to time, for business purposes, I try to get in and out with as little cost of my time and money as possible. It is simple business procedure. And I do intend to make a profit on every signing I complete. That is just business 101. I have many, many loyal title companies, realtors, attorneys, and lenders that request me specifically. If I am not available, I have my own team of notaries I can pull from and these companies trust me enough that if I send someone that I trained and has done work for me, then that is ok. I have a very good rapport with my title co's and SS alike. (well at least until this happened with Notary Direct) But I think it was just time for me to part ways with them any way as they are about the only company left that I would do closings as cheaply for. So there you have it. IMHO

Reply by MikeC/KY on 6/1/10 2:19pm
Msg #339334

Re: "For the lower fees, I do not explain anything. I just

So, it is not really me treating the customers any less professionally than I do any other ones. I am always very professional, prompt, upfront, etc. I just do not dilly dally around, just stick to the basics. You can go to a chiropractor and get a basic service from probably around $40. But that is all you will get. And you will be out of there in about 15 minutes or you can pay around $100 and get the works for about 45 minutes and feel much better when you leave. It all depends on what you feel like paying. The SS get what they pay for. They can have someone who is sloppy, new, etc for $50 or $75 or they can step up to the plate and pay someone what a closing is really worth.
Yes, I agreed to do this for $75. Like I said, I have had a good, long relationship with the SS until now. They always pay very promptly and their package are never this large. I did not know that going into the signing in question as I had never done one quite like this for them.

Reply by Ali/IL on 6/1/10 4:39pm
Msg #339356

Re: ...the sad part is that the other notary sent back out

Did I read right? For the lower fees you don't explain the docs? You need to treat borrowers equally whether the company that sent you pays well or not.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/1/10 12:37pm
Msg #339312

Re: ...the sad part is that the other notary sent back out

I had to establish a "set" rule to eliminate the stress involved with accepting low-fees and waiting for payment. Just don't do them.
This also causes a problem here at home as my wife, who is our financial guru tells me $75 - $80 is better than nothing! What does she know, she's just a teacher! LOL

Reply by ikando on 6/1/10 2:31pm
Msg #339336

Re: ...the sad part is that the other notary sent back out

Notarysigner, I have the same devil on my shoulder in my husband--a tax accountant! Depending upon what else is going on, I may or may not take a lesser fee for my work. However, I ALWAYS ask who the lender is, just because BOA seems to be farming to a lot of people these days. When I was doing Countrywide (now the BOA packages), I wouldn't take less than $150. Now the SS, and even sometimes the title companies, only want to pass on $100 for that big package.

Reply by John/CT on 6/1/10 12:54pm
Msg #339317

Loyalty?!?! You got that right ....

It has been demonstrated over and over again, the premise in this business: "Thank you for your good service in the past, but what we're really interested in now is what are you going to do for us today."

Reply by MW/VA on 6/1/10 12:49pm
Msg #339315

While some are making an issue of the fee you accepted, I see another issue here.
As far as "incompetence" is concerned, I would see that on the part of the ss/tc.
Who ever heard of having all those pages of closing instructions initialed???? Talk about extreme! Also, there's no notarization involved, so they didn't necessarily have to send a notary out to do it.
IMO if the loan docs were signed & the loan funded you are entitled to your full fee.
As you said, you can be sure that having those pages w/borrower's initials was not a lender requirement.
BTW, I learned one important lesson in this business--the companies that offer the lowest fees almost always have the most hoops & hassles attached to them.

Reply by John/CT on 6/1/10 12:56pm
Msg #339318

And, reasons for no/reduced pay. We heard that many times. n/m

Reply by ikando on 6/1/10 2:32pm
Msg #339337

Amen!

Reply by Les_CO on 6/1/10 1:23pm
Msg #339324

You agreed to the assignment ‘on their terms,’ you should have done it ‘as instructed’, or given it back. You may not agree with the Title, Lender, or SS requirements, but that does not mean it’s your decision on what gets signed, initialed, copied, or sent back. You’re lucky they paid you anything.
IMO

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 6/1/10 3:15pm
Msg #339349

Do what you're told

As long as it legal, you should have done what you were told or declined. It sounds like you have done signings for a while. Back in the old days, every piece of paper had to be initialed regardless of whether it said "initial" at the bottom. If I were you, I would apologize for not following instructions. Doesn't mean you need to accept any more from them but I would let them know that you see now that it was wrong for you to do that.

Reply by Frank/NC on 6/1/10 2:42pm
Msg #339343

Stop saving their butts and tell them what many of us do, "NO".

Reply by LKT/CA on 6/1/10 4:44pm
Msg #339357

said <<<I have NEVER had to print the 40 plus pgs of instructions and have the borrower initial them. .......KSTREET TITLE, wanted Everything, instructions and all printed and initialed or signed........I printed everything but the instructions, like I normally do, and went to my closing......The next day I got a call from Dawn Brasher @ Notary Direct......>>>

When Notaries get complacent and comfy, they stop treating each signing as if it were their first and the end result is a damaged and possibly severed business relationship. If you were a new Notary you wouldn't even question the instructions. Now that you've "been there and done that" you're questioning their instructions. If it's not illegal or violating notarial laws for your state - do as the TC asks.

Also, you did not negotiate directly with the borrower, offering them a choice of SA services or Notary services. You negotiated with a SS and that implies SA services - the same level of services whether your fee is $150 or, as you accepted, $75. YOU accepted a lowball fee, you could declined...that was your choice to accept it and when you accept lowball fees, you need to deliver just as if you accepted a $150 fee.

<<<I will also tell the other 15 or 16 notaries who work under me or through me to no longer deal with Notary Direct and Dawn Brasher!>>>

IMHO, you were wrong, on quite a few levels.

Reply by Ali/IL on 6/1/10 4:47pm
Msg #339358

I have often wondered if we should print out those instructions at all. I always do.

Reply by LKT/CA on 6/1/10 5:00pm
Msg #339360

With the exception of the notary instruction sheet and the airbill, the borrower gets a copy of everything the TC has emailed me.

Reply by CF on 6/1/10 4:54pm
Msg #339359

While I do not like the idea of adjusting your level of

service for the fee associated with the closing....it has been my experience that the lower the pay is..the more problems there are. Sometimes it is from the side of the borrower and I had found myself sitting there while they were on the phone for 30 minutes or better yet tyring to call all sorts of numbers for 30 minutes. Sometimes it is the company...late docs...needing to swap out wrong docs...last minute docs not with the package...some mysterious error that occurred that no one can send you proof of...wanting you to go back out for something, incredibly, foolish like you described. As for performing the closing..I do it the same way each and everytime despite the fee.

While I do believe that you can have profitability off a $75.00 signing (pretty much as you explained about 1 hour) ....I do believe that you need to make sure that you are doing it exactly how they said to. As for them sending you a BOA package for $75.00....I would have, immediately, called and told them increase my fee or re-assign.

Reply by Notarysigner on 6/1/10 5:42pm
Msg #339371

Re: While I do not like the idea of adjusting your level of

If you can't do what they ask, then give back. They are the ones that's paying for what they want no matter what. IMO

Reply by CopperheadVA on 6/1/10 6:59pm
Msg #339385

I'm probably going to get slammed here, but I'm having a hard time understanding the issue with Mike's reasoning.

We are constantly getting faced with offers of ever-lowing fees. I always decline them but the companies keep shopping around instead of accepting my reasonable fee. The fees offered keep getting lower and lower and lower - so something's gotta give here. I have an occasional client who pays an extremely high fee per closing - they require excellent service and also require that the package gets shipped out same day no matter what. I make sure that gets done, even if I have to go out of my way or to the airport for late shipment deadline, because this company pays well. The fee they pay is commensurate with the service they get.

However, if the low payer wants the same level of service, they are not going to get it. For those clients, I'm not driving 15 - 30 miles out of my way to make sure the package goes out same day. Sometimes I have Saturday closings, and if they occur after the local pick-up time on Saturday then I'm not driving 30 miles round trip to the FedEx Office where the package would still go out on Saturday if I get it there by 3 PM. (And for the record, I don't take $75 closings.)

I've never thought of *not* going over the docs with the signers because the fee is so low, but if a company is only paying $75 including e-docs, after printing the package, the value of the notarizations is likely making up the remainder of the fee. So the notary is already traveling for free at that point. What is the incentive to offer more service? If these companies want to only offer a reduced fee, what's wrong with offering a reduced service? If the borrower has a problem with it, they can complain to the lender, and the lender or TC will perhaps then realize that our services have value.

I'm not saying that I personally would accept $75 for a closing and then just offer point and sign service, but I'm not going to throw stones at someone for offering a service commensurate with the fee offered.

Reply by LKT/CA on 6/1/10 7:50pm
Msg #339395

The borrower pays $200+ for notary services BUT gets the level of mobile SA service per the fee the NSA negotiates?

$150 = 5 Star service
$125 = 4 Star service
$100 = 3 Star service
$75 = 2 Star service
$50 = 1 Star service

Reply by CopperheadVA on 6/1/10 8:02pm
Msg #339397

I rarely see the notary/signing service fees broken out on the HUD. However, if the borrower is paying that kind of money for an in-home loan closing, then perhaps the TC should contract directly with the notary and pay a fee commensurate with the service they wish for the borrower to receive. They can't expect to pay $75 and get 5 star service.

Another example: If the lender does not want to pay for a full appraisal, they pay for a drive-by appraisal. They pay a reduced fee and get a reduced service.

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 6/1/10 8:04pm
Msg #339399

borrower pays same amount

The issue is not with the borrower. Why should they be punished? They are paying whatever the fee is. Again, I say it goes back to accepting the job or not. Are you going to refund some of your money if the signing is really quick and/or very few pages?

I keep track how long signings take and what kind of loan it is and how many signers, etc. Then, if I see a pattern where signings from xyz company are taking too long, then I will up their fee. Otherwise, I don't accept from them anymore.

Reply by LKT/CA on 6/1/10 11:49pm
Msg #339414

DaveCA/CA, your post is meant for....

....someone else. I'm not the one advocating the fee the NSA negotiates = the level of service they provide to the borrower. Any signing I complete, the borrowers receives 5 star service, no matter what fee I negotiated with the hiring entity.

<<<The issue is not with the borrower. Why should they be punished?.....Again, I say it goes back to accepting the job or not.>>>

Exactly my point!!!

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 6/1/10 11:54pm
Msg #339415

Sorry, I was piggy-backing what you said

Kind of adding on. My fault. Sorry. Sometimes, I type something and think I explained it right. Yes. I agree with you and didn't mean any harm. Sorry.

Reply by mwm143 on 6/1/10 8:03pm
Msg #339398

Copper I agree to some extent

I too have a few clients left that pay very well and for those I will drive an extra distance and go out of my way to locate a later pickup. But when it comes to the signing with the borrowers I don't think I could change my process even if I tried. I believe if I did reduce my services to the borrowers those signings would take longer and that's the very opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish. Each and every borrower gets the same service from me regardless of the fee.

Reply by jnew on 6/2/10 10:04am
Msg #339435

My take on this: when you agree to take a lowball fee you are swimming in a different pond. The SS takes it as given that your expertise is not a significant factor. The reason they hand-hold and overdo the requirements is that they assume that the notary is only there to follow directions and not have any significant input into the process. They check and double check everything you do and overdo the phone calls to make sure it gets done. Given that, I would see no reason to do anymore than follow their directions. No more and no less. If that means point and sign so be it. This is what they expect. This is precisely why this cost cutting by the lenders and TC's is a bad trend. They are willing to accept inferior service in order to save themselves money.

Reply by jba/fl on 6/2/10 10:20am
Msg #339437

"My take on this: when you agree to take a lowball fee you are swimming in a different pond."

The way I see it: no matter who the company is, they have directions to be followed. If those directions are not followed, one has not done the job as contracted.

If one does not like the fee or any of the terms that come with the offer then one is free to negotiate. If there is not a meeting of the minds, then the deal should not be consumated.

Not consumated: no problems.
Accepted: Perform (consumate) according to the contract, in this case, written confirmation.

I find this simple to understand.

As for level of service: why would that change? If it is worth doing, it is worth doing well. One never knows who is watching or who will be looking at one's work.

It is a small world.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/2/10 7:37pm
Msg #339499

That's it in a nutshell...

"The way I see it: no matter who the company is, they have directions to be followed. If those directions are not followed, one has not done the job as contracted."

Absolutely. If you accept the job, you accept all that comes with it. Arguing about whether or not 40+ pages of inconsequential stuff should be initialed by the BO is pointless - that's what the hiring party requires, so that's what you do. Or, you just don't accept the assignment...

It's unfortunate that the OP got stiffed on the fee, but laying that at the feet of Notary Direct is wrong, IMO. Do what you were contracted to do. If you fulfill their requirements and THEN they refuse to pay you what was agreed, you have a legitimate beef. But refusing to do something because you personally don't think it's necessary doesn't leave you with much of a defense.

I've dealt with Dawn at ND many times in the past few years, and I always found her to be fair. Her referring to the OP's actions as "incompetence" for not following through on instructions might be over the top, but what else could you call it - arrogance?