Posted by Robert/FL on 3/12/10 6:35am
Msg #326794

Been doing research on Louisiana "civil-law" notaries...

How cool are Louisiana notaries? Their authority and duties are so different from the rest of ours. God willing I ever became an attorney, I would become a civil-law notary in Florida for sure!

Reply by BobbiCT on 3/12/10 6:57am
Msg #326799

If you think that's cool ...

Check out Puerto Rico and Argentina or Brazil notaries.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/12/10 6:59am
Msg #326800

Re: If you think that's cool ...

Well I know that notaries in those countries are attorneys; I believe most everywhere in the world outside the U.S., notaries are also attorneys. Louisiana notaries, however, are not attorneys, although their examination standards are similar.

Having dealt with a lot of documents from the Middle East, I mentioned in another post that their documents are particularly impressive - all stamps are affixed in purple ink, and most notaries use two or three stamp-seals -AND- an embossed seal on every document.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/12/10 7:19am
Msg #326806

Re: If you think that's cool ...

Indeed in most other countries Notaries are Attorneys that actually have Notarial Practices as they decided to go into that direction and mostly it is a family business where it goes from generation to generation. My mother use to be a Notary in Belgium and my sister took over her practice. For instance in Belgium a real estate transaction can only be handle by a *Notaire/Notaris* and the fee is 6 to 12% of the value of the property.
Louisiana still using a large part of the Napoleonic Code has different sets of rules for their Notaries that are mostly based on the Napoleonic Code.
Never dealt with a Middle Eastern Doc in the USA however lived there for many years (Kuweit and Saudi) and their set of rules is different as well.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/12/10 7:40am
Msg #326811

My understanding was that civil-law notaries represent

the transaction as opposed to the parties. So they are kind of attorneys/mediators/document-drafters assisting both parties, whereas an attorney only represents one of the parties.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/12/10 7:54am
Msg #326813

Re: My understanding was that civil-law notaries represent

That all depends.
I am taking Belgium for figure as I know the Laws of the Country but indeed the Notary can represent both parties ... however Notaries work for families from generation to generation ...
I use one of my friends as Notary and recently when we purchased a condo I used her but the selling party had their own Notary.
Here is how it went down:
We found a condo we liked by the beach with the help of our Real Estate Agent, once we decided to go for it we went to the bank and took care of the financial part and from there the Bank contacted our Notary that took care of all the documents and the transaction went smooth ... Our Notary contacted the seller's Notary and they worked it all out.
The Notary did all the research related to eventual liens etc ... drafted the papers for registration and all we did was signing in the end.
You also have to understand that Laws on Real Estate are a bit more complex over there.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 3/12/10 8:50am
Msg #326824

So a notary in Belgium also performs the functions

of a title agent? Do they research the title and provide a title commitment?

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/12/10 9:01am
Msg #326829

Re: So a notary in Belgium also performs the functions

A Notary in Belgium does all the research thru *La Maison Communale/Gemeentehuis* where everything is recorded and also looks up if anything is recorded on *Province* which the Country is made of 9.
After his research is done he starts to draw all the legal documents of ownership and once on a legal base proves that the property is clear of any liens he starts the registration process with all the entities where it needs to be registered.
The Notary represents in one entity all the entities you have here in the US in order to close on a house ... therefore his fees are quite steep.
I know that ours on a 235.000 euro sale made 22.500 (that was the portion of the value of the house and some other fees)

Reply by Laura_V on 3/12/10 9:57am
Msg #326849

Re: My understanding was that civil-law notaries represent

I'm not certain because I haven't researched it but what blows me away is this:

You are right about attys only representing their clients. I'll add their wallets.
This is adversarial.


If you are right (and I totally think you are) notaries standing guard over / morally representing the transaction is an entire other universe.

Now we are talking
What's true
What's right
What's the greater good
Negotiation
Compromise
and hopefully
Consensus.


OMG, again, Robert. What kind of brain food do you eat? Can you send me some?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/10 8:52am
Msg #326825

Re: If you think that's cool ...

""Now listen. Did you ever hear of the Napoleonic code, Stella?...Now just let me enlighten you on a point or two...Now we got here in the state of Louisiana what's known as the Napoleonic code. You see, now according to that, what belongs to the wife belongs to the husband also, and vice versa...It looks to me like you've been swindled baby. And when you get swindled under Napoleonic code, I get swindled too and I don't like to get swindled..."

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/12/10 9:06am
Msg #326830

Re: If you think that's cool ...

indeed you can get swindled and that is why to anyone living in a State where the Napoleonic Code is in place I do recommend a pre-nuptial agreement ... In Europe in the countries going by The Code it is a LAW to have an agreement signed in front of a Notary before the Civil Wedding takes place (as in Europe with the exception of the UK, Church weddings cannot be performed before the union has been performed at City Hall).
You have 2 kinds off pre-nups : Separation des Biens (where each keep what is theirs and including what they acquire separatly during the marriage and Communaute des Biens which is where you keep whatever you had before and split what was acquired after the marriage)

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 3/12/10 9:26am
Msg #326833

Only if that is YOUR desire. BTW, you don't seem old

enough to even remember what a street car actually looks like
Love,
Stanley

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/12/10 9:38am
Msg #326837

Re: Only if that is YOUR desire. BTW, you don't seem old

Actually I am old enough to remember street cars ... well Europeans that is LOL

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/10 9:39am
Msg #326838

Re: Only if that is YOUR desire. BTW, you don't seem old

I've seen old movies Bob

The prize goes to you for recognizing Tennessee Williams "Streetcar Named Desire"

Not really a Tennessee Williams fan, and definitely not a Marlon Brando fan.

Reply by Laura_V on 3/12/10 10:08am
Msg #326858

You're right Sylvia, and......

ITA and I won't notarize prenups anymore.

I've never seen one where someone didn't get screwed if that or that happened later.


Ex: last prenup I notarized around 5 years ago.

Young couple. Both with assets. Getting married soon.

Prenup like this: she has 40% of the assets going in so she will have 40% going out.

But women are still paid around 25% or more less than men in the public sector in the US. So add 25 years of earnings to the equation and things get skewed faster than anyone realizes.

And they planned to start having kids in a year or two. Pregnancies and pre-kindergarden age kids can seriously interrupt a woman's career advancement. And I say women because the guy is usually earning more so it makes sense that the lower wage earner be the one to stay home - at least part time - for 5 years or so.


So the couple may live happily ever after. I truly hope so.

But if they divorce 25 years later, he gets 60% and she gets 40% even though her ability to earn more money that him has been diminished due to their decision to have kids.


And Bob's your uncle.

So that's why I just stay away from prenups. Some paralegal who is permitted to say "uh - do you see where this could wind up?" can have 'em. There is a very nice one in my county so good on him.

Reply by Laura_V on 3/12/10 9:53am
Msg #326846

OK - now you are busted

Your post shows that you are amazing.

The best notaries are nerds. OK fine.


The best mobile notaries are also very flexible. That's hard to find. OK super fine.


The best of the best of both the above can do perfect notary work in crazy situations. They need to see the smallest picture.


You see the global picture. OK super fine and OMG.


You are amazing. You are busted.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/12/10 7:00am
Msg #326801

Re: If you think that's cool ...

And Middle Eastern notaries also stamp the word "ATTESTED" in purple ink over every notarization.

Reply by Laura_V on 3/12/10 10:09am
Msg #326859

Cool n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 3/12/10 8:29am
Msg #326822

Very interesting. I'm sure it ties back to the French

possession of that territory. Also, people from Mexico are often confused by our American notary concept. They don't necessarily understand that our duties are not nearly the scope of other countries.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/12/10 8:54am
Msg #326826

Re: Very interesting. I'm sure it ties back to the French

Here is what I found :
The origins of Mexico's legal system are both ancient and classical, based on the Greek, Roman and French legal systems, and the Mexican system shares more in common with other legal systems throughout the world (especially those in Latin America and most of continental Europe) than does the U.S. legal system.

So based on that my guess is that Notaries over there also hold a Law Degree and specialized in Notarial.

Here is the definition per Napoleonic Law:

Civil-law notaries (or Latin notaries) are lawyers of voluntary private civil law who draft, take, and record legal instruments for private parties, provide legal advice and give attendance in person, and are vested as public officers with the authentication power of the State. Unlike notaries public, their common-law counterparts, they are able to provide legal advice and prepare instruments with legal effect. They often receive the same education as advocates at civil law, trial lawyers, or any professional litigator but without qualifications in advocacy, procedural law, or the law of evidence, analogous to solicitor training in common-law countries.

Reply by JanetLA on 3/12/10 9:50am
Msg #326844

Exactly cawest/PA

Our duties etc are much different than others. Which is why I never get into the UPL arguments here. We can and do suggest and prepare all documents for people to solve their particular issues. I see that others are not allowed to tell customers what they need(ack vs jurat). We can prepare wills, trusts, mortgages etc. And we can prepare documents without an attorney. Very interesting history. But the test for Louisiana notaries is tough... check it out on our SOS website. It is 4-5 hours long and you have to draw up documents on blank pages, (wills etc or some obscure document like renuciation of right to concur, etc). Worth the effort to pass the exam because our commissions do not expire-we are commissioned for life.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/12/10 9:59am
Msg #326853

Re: Exactly cawest/PA

Oh I believe you as I am sure they have to perform just as a Notary back in the EU.

Now I have a question for you ... Can a Notary in LA work the entire State or is the Notary limited to it's Parish?

Reply by Laura_V on 3/12/10 10:10am
Msg #326860

I KNOW!!! That's why I always read your posts, Janet n/m

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/10 10:26am
Msg #326868

Re: Exactly cawest/PA


" some obscure document like renuciation of right to concur"

A spouse may expressly renounce the right to concur in the alienation, encumbrance, or lease of a community immovable or some or all of the community immovables, or community immovables which may be acquired in the future, or all or substantially all of a community enterprise. He also may renounce the right to participate in the management of a community enterprise. The renunciation may be irrevocable for a stated term not to exceed three years. Further, any renunciation of the right to concur in the alienation, encumbrance, or lease of a community immovable, or some or all of the community immovables or community immovables which may be acquired in the future, or all or substantially all of a community enterprise which was proper in form and effective under the law at the time it was made shall continue in effect for the stated term not to exceed three years or if there was no term stated, then until it is revoked.

A spouse may nonetheless reserve the right to concur in the alienation, encumbrance, or lease of specifically described community immovable property

Reply by Laura_V on 3/12/10 9:49am
Msg #326843

LA notaries totally hugely rock!

Notaries in BC, Canada, are similar. They are basically notaries and paralegals combined.

BETTER than attys in some ways. No stupid ego in being a notary.

Waaaaay to much ego potential with being an atty.



I always thought that if I could stand to go to law school, I would get my license and then start a firm of paralegals.

The paralegals would give great service at a way-below-lawyer-fees cost for bankruptcies, no-contest divorces, etc. As the atty, I would have their backs and their liability ins.

Heck ya.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/12/10 9:58am
Msg #326851

Civil law notaries in Florida

have to be attorneys for 5 years. I have to admit, the concept of a civil-law notary's "authentic acts" is somewhat abstract and foreign to me. Perhaps JanetLA would care to elaborate? We have very few civil-law notaries in Florida, less than 100 I believe. They are authorized to do everything a regular notary can, including performing marriages, but they have much more extensive authentication and certification powers.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/10 10:08am
Msg #326855

Re: Civil law notaries in Florida

"less than 100 I believe. "

92 to be precise. They also have to practice International Law and have a need to authenticate an act or attest to validity of a document.
They also have to obtain a certificate of good standing from the Florida Supreme Court.

Reply by Laura_V on 3/12/10 10:20am
Msg #326863

Is PAW one, Sylvia? n/m

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/10 10:24am
Msg #326866

Re: Is PAW one, Sylvia?

No, he isn't an attorney - don't even think he has played one on TV

Reply by Laura_V on 3/12/10 10:27am
Msg #326869

LOL! It's just that PAW is so knowledgable I wondered. n/m

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/10 10:29am
Msg #326871

Re: LOL! It's just that PAW is so knowledgable I wondered.

Thank you Laura - I was PAW's mentor

(That is why he is almost as good as I am )

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/12/10 11:25am
Msg #326899

There are many times that I forget that PAW isn't a lawyer..

He should be.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/12/10 4:08pm
Msg #326972

Re: There are many times that I forget that PAW isn't a lawyer..

I actually thought he was one "back in the day".

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/12/10 10:08am
Msg #326856

Re: Civil law notaries in Florida

Florida is the first state to permit this specialized type of notary, a lawyer who can draw up contracts for transactions. It was in response to the state's interest in building foreign trade. Foreign visitors to the state and immigrants from many countries expect notaries to be highly trained. But in the United States virtually all notaries are forbidden to offer legal advice. (An exception is Louisiana, where the law is anchored in the French Napoleonic Code and notaries have powers more akin to lawyers. They even get special "NP" auto tags.) Florida's new civil law notary can offer legal advice. But he must have passed an exam and been a practicing lawyer with five years' experience. The state's first crop of 63 civil law notaries passed the exam in 2000 I believe.
STPetePap

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/10 10:22am
Msg #326865

Re: Civil law notaries in Florida

Corrine
Florida's statutes first included "civil law notary" in 1998, prior to that it was just "Florida International Notary"
Also whereas a notary public is appointed by the Governor, a Civil Law notary is appointed by the Secretary of State.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/12/10 10:37am
Msg #326874

Re: Civil law notaries in Florida

Thanks for the info ... amazing how much we can learn everyday.

I will be in Florida for 2 weeks in September and cannot wait ... my favorite place ... St Augustine Vacation for 2 weeks with my sis (our first vacation just the 2 of us in 25 years ... and a little 5 day cruise)

Reply by JanetLA on 3/12/10 10:41am
Msg #326877

Louisiana (too long---sorry)

Thanks Sylvia- I knew what the document was-- it was just an example as to what they may ask us to prepare in the exam. There are many blank pages for preparing the instruments in writing. The form was on my exam but I have never written one in my life.... The exam for Louisiana is NOW for state-wide authority to act. However, it was not until recently. We have what are called "reciprocal parishes" meaning we are qualified in one parish but authorized to act in a number of others. For me, that is 8 surrounding parishes. I could take the exam again and be authorized to act in the entire state but I can't make myself do it again. They give you a map of a piece of property and make you hand write the legal description, including all measurements... UGH! The other forms vary and you have to know them all because you never know what might appear on the exam. The mortgage package is a difficult task in the exam because you have to paraph the note, write the entire thing including borrowers capacity and marital history etc. An authentic act in Louisiana (to simplify) is an instrument in writing sworn to by an affiant in front of a notary and two competent witnesses. It is supposed to be self-proving of the signatures it contains.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/12/10 11:24am
Msg #326897

If California offered such a thing, I would TOTALLY do it...

I love what Louisiana notaries can do... it just makes sense, and it is more in line with what the rest of the world expects of a Notary to be able to handle.

One of my biggest problems are people, especially from Mexico, who think that I am a "Notario" and can do these things for them. It's always difficult to explain because they just have a totally different concept in their minds. I often get the "Crazy Americans" comments.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/12/10 10:44am
Msg #326879

Re: Civil law notaries in Florida

Also, civil law notaries are still permitted to use the title "Florida International Notary" and to have that title reflected on their seal if they desire.

The civil law notary rules in Florida give more detailed descriptions as to seal requirements, and how to take acknowledgments and administer oaths, than the requirements for regular notaries. Seems kind of backwards, as civil law notaries are attorneys they should already know how to take acknowledgments and administer oaths.

They are also required, underneath their signature on all authentic acts, to TYPE (not stamp) their name, address, phone number, title, and "Under the laws of the State of Florida, section 118.10, Florida Statutes, this authentic act is legally equivalent to the authentic acts of civil-law notaries in all jurisdictions outside the geographic borders of the United States and is issued on the authority of the Florida Secretary of State."