Posted by Marian_in_CA on 3/4/10 5:52pm
Msg #325393

CA Notaries: SOS finally posts new handbook

I think this is almost a record. The new handbook is a dull gray cover. Yuck.

Of note, the number notaries has gone WAY down again, the lowest in the last 5 years.

January 2010: 225,000
January 2009: 260,000
January 2008: 290,000
January 2007: 288,000
January 2006: 260,000
January 2005: 236,000

That market, as well as the new FBI requirement is having them drop like flies, thank goodness.


http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/forms/notary-handbook-2010.pdf


No newsletter yet... but I suppose we can't expect too much right now.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/4/10 5:55pm
Msg #325394

Like the RE & mortgage industry, the days of the big bucks

are over. I'd be curious to know of those 225,000, how many understand those complicated CA notary laws? 10% maybe?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/4/10 5:59pm
Msg #325397

Re: Like the RE & mortgage industry, the days of the big bucks

Less than that, I'm sure. I'm guessing a nice big chuck of them are NNA trained, which means they don't have a clue.... and many of them are simply employees who use their commissions for their job only.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 3/5/10 9:43am
Msg #325464

Re: Like the RE & mortgage industry, the days of the big bucks

I was talking to one that notarizes basically for her job; who went through NNA course to renew. She was telling me about how one of her notarizations was kicked back because she hadn't included "notary public" after her name in an acknowledgment. She was SO indignant about it - she had never written it in before, etc, etc. Explained to her that's been required at least since my first commission in 2006. She was so surprised, said maybe her acknowledgments had that pre-printed, then proceeded to call SOS. I got on my computer, went to SOS website and printed her an ack & jurat for her future reference.

Amazing and sad! She's been a notary for well over 10 yrs.

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/4/10 5:57pm
Msg #325396

Thanks Marian............!!big time

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/4/10 6:04pm
Msg #325399

BTW, if you want a paper copy...

You don't have to buy it... the SOS will send you one for free.

Just send your request, with a self-addressed envelope (at least 6"x9" to:

California Secretary of State
Notary Public Section
Post Office Box 942877
Sacramento, CA 94277-0001

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/4/10 6:09pm
Msg #325402

Re: BTW, if you want a paper copy...

Let's see, about four stamps???

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/4/10 6:11pm
Msg #325403

Thanks Marian - I have updated my state manuals

Reply by JAM/CA on 3/4/10 7:26pm
Msg #325416

I call them every year and they just send it to me. I've never had to write or pay.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/4/10 7:35pm
Msg #325417

I'd rather write a quick note than sit on hold with them for 45 minutes

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/4/10 9:29pm
Msg #325426

Thanks, Marian ....

for posting this information. I remember that Joan B. noted last year that there were 30,000 fewer notaries than the year before, and the figures you posted confirm that. With a quarter million notaries as of the beginning of this year, that means there are 3,879 notaries for each of the 58 CA counties. This is a totally meaningless statistic, but is something to think about, nonetheless. Notaries are concentrated in San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Riverside, San Diego, Orange and Sacramento counties - and in the Bay Area. Anyway, at this rate: At $20 per new/renewing notary, the SOS office takes in $4.5 million spread out over every four years; the testing people take in $9 million over the same period. The people who are authorized to provide the required classes, the people who provide the required bond, the people who take the two 2x2 photos, and the people who sell E&O rack in millions and millions more - not to mention the livescan fingerprinting fees which amount to tens of millions. No wonder the NNA is constantly seeking new members. (Too bad they don't treat the ones they have better, but that's another story.) Speaking of that, Marian, you mention that the FBI requirement can account in part for the drop in notaries. Do you mean that some applicants thought they'd be caught through FBI fingerprinting? Cos I thought the previous DOJ fingerprinting was the same thing ...? Anyway, I think the decrease in notaries can be mainly attributed to too much competition among SAs, lower fees, rampant no-pay SSs and TCs and the mortagage meltdown of 2008. (P.S. Hope all my math is right!)

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 3/4/10 10:42pm
Msg #325433

Re: Thanks, Marian ....

I think we will lose approx. 30,00 more notaries in 2010.

There are not many CA notary schools that hold classroom attendance for notaries. In southern CA I think there are only 4-5 schools that offer a classroom option.

Most notary schools offer "home study, cd, online/etc.

There are some Saturday dates that the CPS has given us that they will not test on Saturdays throughout 2010. Some of these dates are the usual holiday weekends, but several are dates that are not holiday involved.

The reason for fewer notaries in CA are:

1. mortgage meltdown ( I only get 2-3 students in a class of 40 students who are in the mortgage industry). I always ask!

2. CA is the most difficult state to be a notary !!!

Every CA notary knows the drill. I always get a kick out of an out of state notary who has moved to CA and begins the CA process.

He/she is stunned!

One subject I would like to address for CA renewing notaries is the time frame to become a notary. I know it has been discussed before but you must take the notary test at least
3 MONTHS before your commission expires.

If I have a class of 40 students and 15 of them are renewing notaries at least 12 of them are going to have a lapse of over 30 days in his/her commission.

If you are a CA notary and you are going to have a 30 day lapse between commissions you must take your journals over the county clerk where you were sworn in before and contact the Sec of State.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/4/10 11:38pm
Msg #325437

Re: Thanks, Marian ....

"you mention that the FBI requirement can account in part for the drop in notaries. Do you mean that some applicants thought they'd be caught through FBI fingerprinting? "

The new requirements, as I understand them, do a more comprehensive BGC than was done previously. What the DOJ looks at is apparently not the same as what the FBI looks at. I recently got into conversation with someone I see from time to time at a shipping center (that shall remain nameless). I'd been told previously that this person had applied for a notary commission and had been waiting a long time to get some "glitches" worked out. This time, I was told that (s)he may not get approval because of a felony as a juvenile (supposedly sealed). I don't know if that was speculation and I didn't press the issue, but I thought it was interesting. I guess they're serious about that.

"I think the decrease in notaries can be mainly attributed to too much competition among SAs, lower fees, rampant no-pay SSs and TCs and the mortagage meltdown of 2008."

I think this may have had some impact, but I have to believe that the vast majority of notaries in California work in an office somewhere and have no connection with the "NSA" business - except maybe those who work in tc and escrow offices or in other real estate related businesses. But I bet they would not represent a major segment of CA notaries.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/5/10 12:22am
Msg #325443

Re: Thanks, Marian ....

I just have no idea how many notaries are commissioned for their employment - as opposed to those of us who are loan signers - though there's no doubt we're in the minority. But it still seems to me that the majority of those who have not renewed their commission or got one to begin with is not because their employers don't require it - I don't see why that number would change dramatically. I still say most of the decrease can be attributed to former NSAs. For example: 65% of notaries are NOT fulltime signing agents. But of the 35% who are, huge numbers of them have dropped out. But this is all speculation on my part ... not to mention possibly mathematically convoluted. One very rough way to figure out how many notaries are loan signers is compare the total membership on NR or 123, for example, with the total number of notaries statewide.

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 3/5/10 12:36am
Msg #325444

Re: Thanks, Marian ....

As far as the NNA/NSA

They stopped having loan signing classes over 5 months agi

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/5/10 2:05am
Msg #325446

Re: Thanks, Marian ....

I have primarily anecdotal info, but I seem to have run into lots of people who used to have their notary commission "just in case" and didn't find it worth all the hassle any more. I've also run into people who didn't pass the test, or employer didn't think it was worth the expense any more, or didn't want what is perceived to be increased liability, etc. The list goes on.

When it was relatively easy and inexpensive, lots of people figured "why not?" It's not so simple anymore, so it appears that more and more people don't want to go through all the extra grief. If that's the case, then I say these new laws and regulations were very well done and appear to be having the desired affect. And hopefully, that affect will only increase with time!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/5/10 2:17am
Msg #325450

Re: Thanks, Marian ....

I agree, Janet. I've gone in to local bank branches as well as insurance offices and have been told that they is no longer paying to renew commissions for their employees, and are actually starting to hire contracted notaries instead. One manager told me it was because their corporate office is trying to limit their liability, but also because it's a big investment that they have to repeat every 4 years. But also, he said that what often happens is they they lose people to high turnover, so if they do manage to get a notary commissioned after all the money and time... they won't be around very long.

As for the FBI checks... yes, I do think that plays a part. Individuals who had a clean slate in CA may have had something in another state.... and previous DOJ checks wouldn't pick up on that. Now, the state wants a nationwide clearance. I don't blame them.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/5/10 2:09am
Msg #325447

Re: Thanks, Marian ....

I think a big part of the drop stems from all the people who, in 2004-2006 or so, fell for the radio as campaigns about making $100K+ a year for being a notary. I STILL have people ask me about those... saying they heard we're rich.

HAHAHAHAHA.

I gently remind them that those ads were just that -- ads, and were akin to those diet ads you see that say, "Results Not Typical".

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/5/10 12:32pm
Msg #325488

Meanwhile, in Florida we have 420,000 notaries (according to my latest correspondence with the Dept. of State), many of whom have never had any form of education or background check, and many more of whom have taken our "online class" (which has no examination), and are now out there stamping everything in sight without a clue as to what a notary is supposed to do.

And, our handbook hasn't been updated in about 8 years.

Although I do sympathize with you Californians who have to jump through hoops to get a commission and have such strict laws, etc., at least you have an active SOS that actually gives a crap about notaries.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/5/10 1:01pm
Msg #325494

Agree Robert...

And you can forget about getting reliable info or answers to your questions if you call the SOS...they refer you to an attorney..

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/5/10 1:12pm
Msg #325497

Re: Agree Robert...

Which is hysterical, because 90% of attorney's don't know a thing about notary law. Last time the SOS referred me to an attorney, I asked them to please recommend an attorney who specializes in notary law. Never received a response.

All an attorney will do is interpret the law for you, and their interpretation could be different than the SOS's interpretation if a complaint were ever filed against the notary. So I personally don't feel very comfortable placing my commission in the hands of an attorney who doesn't know what he/she is talking about.

Reply by jba/fl on 3/5/10 1:20pm
Msg #325501

Re: Agree Robert...yep, sure do.

Leaves us all just flapping in the wind...

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/5/10 1:49pm
Msg #325518

My point about that is...

(and I've stated this to the SOS office) - why should *I* incur legal expenses to interpret the laws you've mandated...that's your job, not mine. I asked them to refer my particular question to their legal counsel - I've never had a response.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/5/10 2:56pm
Msg #325558

Re: Agree Robert...

"Which is hysterical, because 90% of attorney's don't know a thing about notary law."

Ok - several years ago I had a loan signing with an attorney (he and his wife were refinancing their home). He informed me that he was also a notary. After we finished the loan signing we chatted for a while. I learned that he drew up a lot of wills which he was the notary on - not a problem - however his wife, who worked with him in his office acted as a witness on the wills. I told him that he couldn't notarize his wife's signature, and he wanted to know where I got that misinformation. I had to pull out my copy of the handbook to show him that in Florida you cannot notarize a spouse's signature. He then said he wasn't worried about it as the wills he drew up would never be contested. So, I wouldn't mind betting his wife is still acting as a witness on the wills he draws up.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/5/10 4:28pm
Msg #325575

Re: Agree Robert...

Yep, I can think of two different situations where I've pulled out my handbook to correct an attorney about notary law. Fortunately, they were both clients I'd worked for for a while and they were appreciative (at least to my face ). 'Course, I was very careful as to how I presented it in front of their clients, but both were situations where it was something I couldn't ignore.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/5/10 2:51pm
Msg #325556

" many more of whom have taken our "online class" (which has no examination)"

Unfortunately there are very few (if any) live classes any more.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/5/10 7:44pm
Msg #325626

Exactly. Particularly for those who become notaries for their employment (bank notaries, title company notaries), why would they take the time to go to a live class when they can do it for free online and let the timer run for 4 hours while they go do other things?

Sad thing is, the bank and title co. notaries are the ones that need the education the most IMO.