Posted by Yowheelz on 3/15/10 10:33am
Msg #327299

Clarification of US Census Bureau and ID's

I do testing for the US Census Bureau. The ID must conform to I-9 regulations. If anyone has filled out an "I-9 Employment Eligibility" form lately it has three lists on the back of the form. An applicant must have either one item on list A (Documents that Establish Both Identity and Employment Authorization) or one item from list B (Documents that Establish Identity) and one item from list C (Documents that Establish Employment Authorization). Drivers license and military ID are both on list B. So, while a military ID is ok to use it cannot be used along with a driver's license because they are both on list B. A military card and SS card or birth certificate would be acceptable as one is on list B and one on list C.

I probably have just muddied the waters. I didn't create the forms I think the INS did, I just follow the instructions.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 10:45am
Msg #327303

to the risk of offending many but by my book the Census can kiss me where the sun does not shine and I'll gladly pay the 100 dollars fine but I am so tired of this poor excuse of financial redistribution in districts.
In the end I am a hard worker and so is my husband and we do not see any of the benefits of the redistributions ...

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/15/10 11:15am
Msg #327305

As a former employer, that is exactly the requirments

I had to meet to hire someone, 1 from List A or 1 from List B & C. Don't see the problem with this.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 11:25am
Msg #327308

Re: As a former employer, that is exactly the requirments

That is your opinion and mine is different.
I do not feel at the time I hire that I have to be stuck to *tokens* as I would prefer to hire who I feel qualified for the position and as former Regional Manager of a large distribution center I had plenty to deal with hiring, than of course the economy went sore and out plant was moved to another State which forced me into resigning as I was in no position to move.
I really do not see the relevance of List A B or C when you need someone that meets requirement for productivity. If I felt like hiring 3 out of list A as nobody qualified in the others well ... to bad!
That's my opinion and most of the time I stick by what I think is right no matter if it sounds wrong to others.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/15/10 11:32am
Msg #327311

Okay..gonna jump in here

I could be dead wrong and, if I am, I'm sure I'll be corrected....

The OP is discussing forms of identification required in hiring for the Census - she said "I do testing for the US Census Bureau. The ID must conform to I-9 regulations." - to me she means primary forms (List A) - secondary forms (List B) - tertiary forms (List C) - the original post has absolutely *nothing* to do with PEOPLE from List A, B or C or their qualifications.

MHO and my interpretation of the post

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 11:33am
Msg #327313

Re: Okay..gonna jump in here

correct Linda

and I was merely stating how I feel about the Census

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/15/10 11:36am
Msg #327315

Then I do not understand your post

Maybe I'm overtired...but I don't get why you said, in part:

"I do not feel at the time I hire that I have to be stuck to *tokens* as I would prefer to hire who I feel qualified for the position ...I really do not see the relevance of List A B or C when you need someone that meets requirement for productivity. If I felt like hiring 3 out of list A as nobody qualified in the others well ... to bad!"

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 11:42am
Msg #327316

Re: Then I do not understand your post

was replying to the other poster about how I felt about hiring.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/15/10 11:45am
Msg #327317

ah...I see said the blind man...:)

Now I get it....told ya - overtired.. Was referring to closely to the first post..

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 11:49am
Msg #327319

Re: ah...I see said the blind man...:)

oh it is ok ... I am very tired as well and on top of that the rain is not helping my mood *wink*

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/15/10 11:59am
Msg #327321

cawest. It is the LAW when you hire someone, anyone

regardless if they are qualified for the job or not. They have to have proper ID from the I9 form. Don't understand where you are coming from.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 12:06pm
Msg #327322

Re: cawest. It is the LAW when you hire someone, anyone

Well it might be the Law but as anyone know the Law is meant to turn around it when needed. I never went by the tiers and never had any issues.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/15/10 12:34pm
Msg #327328

Re: cawest. It is the LAW when you hire someone, anyone

You got lucky is all I can say. I had the Dept of Labor come in one time and checked EVERY file I had on EVERY employee. There are hefty fines that go along with non compliance. Why would you even take that chance? If someone doesn't want to prove their identity to me, then there is something wrong. How hard is it to collect these items? I would EXPECT any employer hiring me to collect these items and if they didn't, they are breaking the law and are non-compliant.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/15/10 12:35pm
Msg #327329

Re: cawest. It is the LAW when you hire someone, anyone

Regardless of how you feel about it, those regulations are put in place to prevent illegal aliens from obtaining lawful jobs... any job I have ever had I had to have proof of identity and ability to work - that means a driver license plus a social security card. If you do not have those items then you could very well be employing someone who is not eligible to work in the U.S.

If you are saying that you have hired people and have never checked an ID or a social security card, that is a major problem.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 12:37pm
Msg #327333

Re: cawest. It is the LAW when you hire someone, anyone

Please read all my posts on this matter (that went quite out of the way), I did hire legals just did not bother about the tiers.
Now at age of 20 or 21 ? How many did you already hire?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/15/10 2:44pm
Msg #327364

Re: cawest. It is the LAW when you hire someone, anyone

"If you are saying that you have hired people and have never checked an ID or a social security card, that is a major problem"

Don't think she is saying that.
But not all employers fill out those I-9's. Some don't even know about them - like the local auto repair shops or small mom and pop type store or local restaurants.

Of course one could say "ignorance of the law is no excuse". And I guess if one commits a misdemeanor unknowingly they should still pay the fine or whatever???

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 3/15/10 12:35pm
Msg #327330

I don't get this. Are you trying to say you hired illegals?

Your posts about how you feel about the Census should be in Just Politics. They have nothing to do with the legal requirements of the I-9 form which is what the first post was about.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 12:38pm
Msg #327334

Re: I don't get this. Are you trying to say you hired illegals?

I will move it to politics, I just replied to the original poster on my feelings about the Census and it turned into a mess.
No I do not believe I hired illegals however those days it is really hard to determine who is and who is not ... checke with some temp companies in CA and TX, they will tell you the stories

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/15/10 12:42pm
Msg #327338

Re: I don't get this. Are you trying to say you hired illegals?

How do you know you didn't hire illegals, you didn't ask for any ID. Illegal aliens or not, you broke the law by not asking for ID. Plain and simple.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 12:58pm
Msg #327340

Re: I don't get this. Are you trying to say you hired illegals?

quick reply before I go off to signing because now you are getting to me.

No not a single illegal was hired but now I can tell you that one major problem is that you can have several individuals walking around with the same documentation under one same name ... it has been seen, it is very much practiced and including the DMV is having a hard time figuring it out ...
A man was working for Walmart, his cousin for Red Robin and another cousin for Lube Express ... all 3 got hired under the same name with same papers ... till I do believe Red Robin figured it out and the investigation was launched.

And perhaps the misunderstanding was the wording *tiers*, I refer to it as *tokens* and no I am not in favor of hiring a *token* if the individual does not qualify for the job.

So please do not assume you never hired an illegal because the fraud in the docs is unbelievable. I do not believe I did but than I do not know but my population was pretty much *usa made*

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 3/15/10 1:16pm
Msg #327342

Whether the ID is fake or not....

You still have to check the documentation. It's the law. I worked as an office manager in CA. I completed an I-9 for every new hire.
If you suspect the ID is a fake, you shouldn't hire them. There are too many documented US citizens who are unemployed. You should be ashamed of yourself. At the very least, you are very lucky you didn't get caught.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 1:35pm
Msg #327351

Re: Whether the ID is fake or not....

no matter that I do need to leave I feel I have a right to defend myself ... No there is nothing I should be ashamed off as not a single illegal to my knownledge was hired ...

Yes all documentation can be verified but it will still not leave out the possibility that more than one individual carries the same documentation .. would you like to talk to the INS about that problem the US has? Perhaps I suggest you do a bit more research about double and triple usage of same ID by different individuals ... You would be surprised ... You can fill in your forms as much as you want you have no clue the tricks they have in their pockets ...

The orignal post about the Census got my reply that I do not believe in the Census and refuse to participate and yes prefer to pay a fine.

Than comes in the great horse with the hiring process ... well there must be a different point of view on Tiers as to me the tiers are the tokens and if a token does not fit into a company I do not see why it should be hired ... never did I imply that any of our employees at the time were illegal but I did admit that I was very selective in who was working for us and that my preferences were for the *made in the USA*

so now I am off to work and have no shame in me but than maybe the subject jumped from one horse to the other and well that is not my problem today!

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/15/10 2:51pm
Msg #327366

Bottom line is...

You hired people without checking their ID or social security card. Just because you don't think any of them are illegal is irrelevant; you are required BY LAW to check these documents. You say that you don't agree with that law. Tough, there are plenty of laws - including many notary laws - that I don't agree with, but you still have to follow them.

IMO it is just plain SCARY that you have hired who knows how many people, and have never checked ID or social security card to verify that the person is actually eligible to work. Just because there are a handful of people using fraudulent documents doesn't relieve you of the obligation to check them. That would be like a notary notarizing documents when the person has no ID, saying "Well, it could be fake anyway so why bother checking it?".

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 3:04pm
Msg #327369

Re: Bottom line is...

can you read or do you just read whatever a word here or there ?

Never hired a singe illegal as far as I know and all documents were checked and if you read all my messages you could see that this was blown out of proportion ... my original post about the tiers was that I only hired who I felt was qualified for the job and *made in the usa* do you get a clue*... in this Country they call it being a racist ... so please spare me your comments.

Now coming from a kid that is about 20, I would suggest you finish up your college and go perform your weddings and before you marry them make sure you check their papers

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/15/10 3:15pm
Msg #327374

Re: Bottom line is...

First of all, my age is irrelevant; I do check all papers before I perform weddings, and you may think that just because I am 20 that this means I am less qualified than anyone else here? I have been a legal assistant and a notary for close to 2 years, tell me how many other 20 year olds have that under their belt?

In addition, how do you know they are not illegal unless you check documents? Just because they look like a white anglo-saxon protestant, how do you know they are not an illegal alien from Canada? And yes, that is racist and discriminatory that you only hire people born in the United States, and completely flies in the face of our constitution. My father was not born in the U.S.A. but has been here since age 7 and is as American as you or I. So you would not hire him because he would have to produce items B and C instead of just item A? That *IS* racist and discriminatory and you ought to be reported.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/15/10 3:16pm
Msg #327376

Re: Bottom line is...

Sorry, should have said I have been a legal assistant for close to *3* years, having started at age 17.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 4:09pm
Msg #327398

Re: Bottom line is...

You would be surprized how many NSA's around the age of 20 are around ... and not all kids start to work in a grocery store or fast food place, actually many start in banks and other offices ... sorry to burst your bubble but you caught me in a really bad mood and NO you are not that special

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 3:55pm
Msg #327395

Re: Bottom line is...

well you come take a look at the LVH and see if you will find any canadians, and yes I gave the jobs to whom I felt they belonged ... you have not seen what the Steel did to this part of the Country so spare me your comments ...

Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/15/10 6:00pm
Msg #327418

Sorry to jump in here, but...

"And yes, that is racist and discriminatory that you only hire people born in the United States, and completely flies in the face of our constitution."

Um, no, it doesn't - behavior like that may violate state and Federal laws that were passed long after the Constitution was ratified, but there's nothing in the Constitution or its amendments that prohibits discrimination in employment.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument...

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/15/10 3:16pm
Msg #327375

Re: Bottom line is...

"Tough, there are plenty of laws - including many notary laws - that I don't agree with, but you still have to follow them"

As I said in a previous post, some employers aren't aware of the I-9 requirements - like local business such as auto repair shops, TV repair shops, mom and pop type businesses etc.
My husband, after he retired, went to work for a TV repair shop until he opened his own.
The guy that owned the shop didn't have anyone fill out an I-9 form, they just filled out the W-4 form (think it was W-4, the one for withholding). I don't think he was aware of those I-9 forms.
But as I said earlier one could say ignorance of the law is no excuse, and if they commit a misdemeanor then I guess they should pay the fine (or whatever the "punishment" is)

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/15/10 3:38pm
Msg #327383

Sylvia,

"As I said in a previous post, some employers aren't aware of the I-9 requirements - like local business such as auto repair shops, TV repair shops, mom and pop type businesses etc."

Any and all businesses that have payroll have no excuse for not knowing the law. They are aware of it but choose to ignore it. These forms come from the IRS as soon as you list an employee for withholdings such as federal taxes, social security and state withholdings. The very first thing they mailed me along with my payroll tax forms was the I9's. Those mom and pop stores, tv repair stores etc etc chose to ignore them. I almost ignored them also but I kept getting them and its a good thing I didn't ignore it. Like I posted before, the Dept of Labor walked in my door one day and its a good thing I had one filled out for every employee. They went back 3 years. Sooner or later they will get caught.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 3:42pm
Msg #327385

Re: Sylvia,

The problem is that you took it out of proportion with your insinuations ... Indeed I should have used the word *quota* and not *token* and as a Regional Manager , well I interviewed , took a look at their papers made my mind up and everything went to HR ... You obviously were in a position where you had to do it all ...

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 10:06pm
Msg #327450

Re: Bottom line is...

but the entire conversation started on quota's and not id's.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/15/10 10:42pm
Msg #327453

No it did not Corrine Read the very first post Where do

you see the word "quota". It is about ID's and the I9 form.

I do testing for the US Census Bureau. The ID must conform to I-9 regulations. If anyone has filled out an "I-9 Employment Eligibility" form lately it has three lists on the back of the form. An applicant must have either one item on list A (Documents that Establish Both Identity and Employment Authorization) or one item from list B (Documents that Establish Identity) and one item from list C (Documents that Establish Employment Authorization). Drivers license and military ID are both on list B. So, while a military ID is ok to use it cannot be used along with a driver's license because they are both on list B. A military card and SS card or birth certificate would be acceptable as one is on list B and one on list C.

Reply by jba/fl on 3/15/10 1:31pm
Msg #327349

Would another word for "token" be "Quota"?

Like - must have 20% asian, 24% black; 35% latino, etc? # positions avail, 1 must be man?

I'm seeing a language barrier here folks..

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 3:12pm
Msg #327372

Re: Would another word for "token" be "Quota"?

Thank You jba well that must be because your travelled Europe ... I appreciate.
From a little thing it really blew up ... ss. (oops for you I cannot shorten it up ..... so : so soory)

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 12:41pm
Msg #327335

I had to meet to hire someone, 1 from List A or 1 from List

this what my reply was to ...
I call the *tiers* *tokens*

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 12:42pm
Msg #327336

off to work n/m

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/15/10 2:12pm
Msg #327359

Re: off to work

"The orignal post about the Census got my reply that I do not believe in the Census and refuse to participate and yes prefer to pay a fine."

Here are a few ways Census Data is used:

Attracting new business to local and state areas.
Forecasting future transportation needs.
Planning for hospitas, nursing homes and locations of health services.
Creating maps to speed emergency services to households in need of assistance whether it be fire, ambulance or police.
Providing evidence in litigation involving land use, voting rights and equal opportunity.
Planning for public transportation.
Planning health and educational services for people with disabilities.
Assessing the potential for spread of communicable diseases.
Analyzing military potential.
These are only a few ways the census is used. If you want me to post the enitre 50 ways, just let me know.

Still don't believe in the Census? It is your duty and your right to participate. The state you live in and the town you live in depends of everyone's input. Think of it this way, the next time you need a firetruck or an ambulance or a policeman you can thank your city, county or whoever that they cared enough to try and get an accurate census because they depend on the money to keep these services there for you. By you not believing in the census and not participating you are hurting the very people that are there to help you. GET IT YET!!!!!!

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 3:05pm
Msg #327370

Re: off to work

in your area perhaps ... try the Lehigh Valley and see what the census does to us.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/15/10 3:43pm
Msg #327386

Yes, I see what the census does for you.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehigh_Valley#Census-designated_places

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 3:53pm
Msg #327393

Re: Yes, I see what the census does for you.

Indeed the census does not work in our favor here ... I would recommend you look up William Allen High ... as much as I am in full support of Public Schools I came to put my children in Bethlehem Catholic High after they went to St Catherine of Sienna ... which was totally against my beliefs but in order to see them getting a decent education there was really no choice.
Yes I might be called a racist but when I came to this Country over 20 years ago I came the legal way and did not come because I wanted to run away from my Country ... Immigration was a pain in the rear but I endured it and paid all my dues. Raised my 5 children (six if you had mhubby), once they were in school worked and paid my taxes and my dues ... so please I could go into a very lenghty exchange of emails with you about my stance on : illegals and political refugees ...

Here the 2008 census killed us ( and by us I do refer to all hard and honest workers and tax payers) and next thing we see is a daycare for over 300 children being built next to the High School for young teen mothers still in HS while we are campaigning to raise funds for a dying child ...

To be honest I cannot wait for hubby to retire that I can run away from here.

Another ex: All our steel did shut down and we saw those hardworking people struggling to make ends meat .. well some got help but many did not ... in the main time Section 8 ad Title 20 was still paying (and is still) out to the ones that choose not to do anything!

I had a closing where a family was helped with 14000 dollars by Welfare and they bought the home they were renting on Section 8 ... because it turns out cheaper for the Section 8 division ... come on ... do not tell me this is normal.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/15/10 6:49pm
Msg #327429

Huh?

"Here the 2008 census killed us ( and by us I do refer to all hard and honest workers and tax payers) "

There was no census taken in 2008. I'm not sure what you are referring to that happened in 2008, but it sounds like it may have been a redistricting by your state. That's a local political issue totally unrelated to the census.

I realize you've only been here as a citizen for about 20 years, so it may be that you don't fully understand what this is all about since this would only be your second census.

A census is done once every 10 years - the last one was in 2000. The Constitutional reason for a census is to determine how many members of the House of Representatives each state gets and how taxes are apportioned - period. The results may ultimately determine how much Federal funds each state gets, but that's not its primary purpose.

It's the STATES that divvy up how those Representatives they're entitled to are apportioned, which may further determine how those Federal funds are divvied up... So if you've got a beef about this, it should be with your state government rather than with the Feds. The Feds are only doing what they are required to do by our Constitution.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 3:59pm
Msg #327396

Re: Yes, I see what the census does for you.

http://www.city-data.com/school/william-allen-high-school-pa.html

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/15/10 4:05pm
Msg #327397

posted wrong link/here is the correct one

http://www.schooldigger.com/go/PA/schools/0228002794/school.aspx

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/16/10 4:54am
Msg #327468

I think you're still missing something here

I think you still may be missing something in translation because your links don't seem to me to relate to the topic. At least, that's the only explanation I can think of. I don't know where the "tiers" or "quotas" you mentioned came from, as they don't have anything to do with the Census - or with a business completing an I-9 form. (Maybe the word "column"? But that means something different.) And it seems to me that you have the wrong idea about the Census, too. The Census is just about counting people, as others have clearly explained. (See Mike/NY's posts.)

If you look at an actual I-9 form, the original post may make more sense. All the I-9 says is that the employer has to ask for proof of two things (and document it) before they hire someone and it explains which ID - or combination of IDs - meet these requirements:

1) that the person is who they say they are; and
2) that the person has the legal right to work in the US.

As for people using phony IDs, the employer is no more responsible for that than a notary is. We just do our best to try to tell the difference. The employer IS responsible to ask for the proof and to keep a record of it in the employee's personnel file.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/15/10 6:58pm
Msg #327431

Re: off to work

Not to mention that it takes about 5 minutes to fill out the census form - this is the shortest one I've ever seen. Mine's already done and will be in the mail tomorrow.

And if you don't fill it out, there will be someone knocking on your door to get the information from you anyway. Why would anyone risk a fine rather than supply innocuous information that the government is required to obtain (and can't, by law, be shared with any other governmental agency)? It's something that happens once every 10 years, and I think a lot of people are just totally misinformed about its purpose... It's not like filing income taxes...

Reply by Dennis_IN on 3/15/10 6:48pm
Msg #327428

Census

Yo.
Your a recruiter for the Census? I also work for the Census. I am the AMFO in Southern Indiana.
Not sure what the purpose of your post is? If I'm not mistaken those requirements are universal for completing of an I-9. Again everybody, if you want the Govt. to spend LESS money on the Census return your Census questionnaire. For every 1% increase in the non-response rate it will cost the Govt. (YOU and ME) another $85 Million dollars. Cawest/PA. it's people like you that will prevent your community from receiving very much needed federal monies and causing me a lot more work.

Reply by Dennis_IN on 3/15/10 7:14pm
Msg #327434

Thank you Linda & Mike for your comments

I have worked on the Census project since Oct 08 and while I get frustrated with how the Govt. operates, there is method to its madness. I take great pride knowing that I implemented a program of such magnitude. We just delivered 23,000 Census questionnaires to homes they thought might not get their questionnaire by mail (either R Routes or PO boxes). Next week a crew of 100 will be visiting all the campgrounds, RV parks and marinas. Next month I will be hiring 1400 people to visit the homes of the likes of Cawest/PA that didn't return their Questionnaire. By Sept. it will all be over and I can return to building my Signing Agent business.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/15/10 7:36pm
Msg #327437

I got mine today...

and it's going back tomorrow.

Although, I do wish there was a way for us to do it online rather than waste more paper/postage... I agree with Dennis.... turn them as soon as you can and keep the costs down. If you don't turn them in, you're going to have a Census worker knocking on your door anyway.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/15/10 8:03pm
Msg #327439

Just curious

What happens if the home owner is away on vacation? I think (could be wrong) there is a time frame on the census.

Reply by KODI/CA on 3/15/10 10:43pm
Msg #327454

Re:Timeline

They will start knocking on doors here in San Diego the first week of June.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/15/10 10:52pm
Msg #327455

Re: Re:Timeline

Just looked at the census website. Census workers knock on doors April through July.

Reply by KODI/CA on 3/16/10 12:05am
Msg #327458

Re: Re:Timeline

You are right Sylvia. However, the April and May door "knocks" relate only to group quarters, not individual homes. The individual family will be contacted in June and July.

Reply by KODI/CA on 3/15/10 10:41pm
Msg #327452

Re: Thank you Linda & Mike for your comments

Dennis, I am in San Diego. We are hiring 1500 people for a very small portion of SD. Overall, we will be hiring 10,000 to cover the county, going to peoples homes that do not return the survey. A huge expense to the taxpayer that, because the portion of the public that is irresponsible and do not return the surveys, is a huge unnecessary expense Most of the public do not know that there are substantial other surveys going on every year, not just in the years ending with 0. Those surveys address many other topics. This survey addresses House of Representative representation and direct dollar allocations to city, county, and state needs. Will you convince them to return their surveys? Not a chance. Why? Who knows.