Posted by VioCa on 3/6/10 11:29am
Msg #325717

Docs dated with a future date

I would like to ask an Arizona Notary if loan docs can be signed prior to the date when they are drawn
A Signing Agent friend of mine had a closing last night and on some docs the dates were preprinted for the 8th on some other docs the dates were changed by Escrow to reflect the 8th amd the rest of them were without dates, the borrowers had to print them,
The appointment was at a time when he could not reach anybody to ask how to proceed
What is the right approach for this one.
He had them sign, was not worried about the dates and notarized with the 5th.
I believe it is a mess, some papers are dated with the eight next to the borrowers signiatures, other docs are signed with the acual date.
Now the deed of trust was dated ( the first page) the 4th of March
I do not know about this one, never seen such a mess
Thank you in advance for any imput

Reply by PAW on 3/6/10 12:05pm
Msg #325719

The date shown on the docs are not necessarily the date the docs were drawn. Obviously, if the docs were received on Friday, the 5th but dated the 8th, it cannot reflect the date the docs were prepared or drawn. The dates on the docs are often the 'effective' date. Since the signing was on Friday evening, the effective date of the transaction would be Monday, the 8th of March. Generally, this is not a problem. However, the notary date (the date the notarial act is performed) must correctly reflect the date of the act. The borrowers 'should' sign and date with the current date as well, but that is their choice.

Reply by Grammyzoom on 3/6/10 2:19pm
Msg #325723

I have had this several times and did some research before proceeding.

It is ok to have the documents signed and notarized prior to the date on the documents. The date of the notarization and any dates the signers enter must be the same day the documents were actually signed and notarized.

I can really only speak for Arizona so it would be wise to check this out, if possible, in your particular state. I did have a signing initiated in California, signed in Arizona, once that was this same situation and it was also fine.

Forward dated docs OK, back dated docs and absolute NO NO.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/6/10 2:28pm
Msg #325726

"back dated docs and absolute NO NO."

To clarify for anyone else reading this who may have questions about this issue: this again would refer to the date of the notarization and the signature dates that the borrowers fill in. If the document date is earlier, as is very often the case, depending on the lender, that isn't a problem unless the lender wants them dated the same date as the document date, known as "date sensitive" documents.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/6/10 5:19pm
Msg #325743

Here in PA I date the day I notarize, the date of the docs relates to the date everything will get in effect but I stick to the date I do the job.

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 3/6/10 9:17pm
Msg #325769

my stance has always been that "pre-dated" docs cannot be signed prior to that date. it's contradicting...exmaple: a deed of trust dated for the 15th but executed on the 10th. realistically, how can this be if the document date is looked at as the created date.

Reply by VioCa on 3/7/10 12:24am
Msg #325773

To clarify this issue I have to add these facts
1. Docs were drawn on the 4th
2. Docs were signed on the 5th
3. Preprinted dates next to where the borrower had to sign were the 8th on some docs and no preprinted dates at all on other docs

I am questioning, was the borrower supposed to date the ones that do not have dates ( the fifth of March), did he need to line through the eight on the others, print the fifth and initial and I do believe that it is difficult to proceed with any changes without the Title co's imput

In California you can never sign docs that have been drawn on a future day then the actual signing date
This loan was for an Arizona property though.

Is it ok to not change anything that was preprinted on the docs except the Notary Ack and Jurats in this kind of scenario? And what date do they print where they are suppose to in their own handwritting.

I would have either stopped the signing untill proper instructions were provided, or proceed the way it was drawn with the proper day on my acknowledgements and jurats
I do not know which decesion would have been the best in this situation

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/7/10 1:54am
Msg #325774

VioCA: I don't know what - if any - legal regulations/rules exist that cover your questions, but under the same circumstances as yours, here's how I have proceeded:
1. Do NOT change any dates on the docs. Period. ('cept RTCs, of course, and your preprinted certificates, if needed) That's the way the docs were drawn, that's presumably the way the lender wants them, etc. They went to a lot of trouble getting those preprinted dates in there. Don't go making any changes re dates.
2. In the absence of preprinted signature dates, have the borrowers date for the day they are signing. (Unless they have been given instructions by someone else to sign with another date).
3. If the preprinted signature date is different than the day of the signing, do NOT have the borrower strike through the preprinted date. Leave the preprinted signature date untouched. And do not have the borrower add the signing date.
3. And like you said, date your certificates the day they appear before you (despite how many clever ways SSs, TCs hint that they'd like you to put some other date there.)

Date-a-mania docs like that give me a big headache. I just cut to the basics: Don't analyze, just notarize. Have never had anything come back saying I should have done it differently. (Quite frankly, though, I'm not so sure that lining through dates other than the signing date and having the borrower write the signing date would have been a problem, either!) But my motto is don't change anything on the docs except the stuff that we know is absolutely required to be changed.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/7/10 2:48am
Msg #325776

Well said, GOLDGIRL/CA. I've never heard of any regulation that says that in CA we cannot sign a document that has a future date on it. Our concern with dates, as you well stated, is the notary certificate and sometimes the RTC (depending on the instructions, if any - I've seen some that state for us to NOT change the transaction date, etc).

I think the problem with this issue is in defining the document date as the date the docs were created. The lenders have the right to define the date on the documents however they choose, unless this is specified in state law. (If there is such a thing in California, I'd like to know where to find it.) The only thing they can't have any control over, as far as I know, is the date we put into our notary certificates.

Actually, I'd probably be better off letting people continue to think they can't sign any future-dated docs. I've gotten at least one nicely paying appointment from a couple of borrowers who first went to a different notary who told them she couldn't do it. Their instructions said that the package had to be signed BEFORE a date that was the same as the document date. I didn't have a problem with that!

Reply by MW/VA on 3/7/10 12:08pm
Msg #325800

It is a fairly common practice to date docs with a future date. The Wells Fargo mail-away packages are done that way (have a date that's like 2 weeks out).
The date on the documents isn't really our concern. We facilitiate a signing & notarize the date at which it actually takes place.
IMO, only when we're asked to back-date or post-date our notarizations do we have an issue.
Anything else can be construed as UPL. We're not the mortgage police.

Reply by VioCa on 3/7/10 11:56pm
Msg #325845

I do not know about this common practice, the question I first asked was from someone else's experience like I stated in my first post, I was just curious about how other Notaries would have handled it

But then regarding DOT dated with a future date in California, I know for sure that I was stopped on several occasions to continue by the Title Co so I would say that there is a reason for it

On other occasions with properties in other states they gave me the ok to continue, so that is why I assumed that it is a California regulation, even though I call for assistance every time this happens regardless what I believe, I want an OK from the Title Co first.

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/7/10 12:27pm
Msg #325802

Some lenders require the Doc be signed on the date designated on the deed. Twice I've gotten Docs and scheduled signing appt, completed signing only to be told I had to go back out and sing on the date posted.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/7/10 1:40pm
Msg #325808

"sing on the date posted."

Hmm and what did you sing James??? LOL

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/7/10 2:10pm
Msg #325810

He was probably singing the blues, Sylvia,

because there's a good chance he didn't get paid for the second trip (he should have noticed the Deed was dated in the future! - like that's the notary's job?!?) or only a trip fee. I've been down this road too many times ... (I'm a slow learner)... so now I check the Deed date before I even start printing. There's never been a time I got the go-ahead to leave for a signing when I reported a Deed dated in the future. Signings were always rescheduled to match the Deed date. Before I learned my lesson the hard way, and didn't notice the Deed date until at the signing table, I just had to pack up and go home. One time while at a signing, the TC called the loan processor who said go ahead and sign and within two days I was back out again with redrawn docs. I got paid for that one, though, of course. I just had one last Friday - a USDA rural housing loan dated for next week. The TC called and so hold off when they noticed the doc date, but then the Realtor said USDA would allow the early signing - so there was a big conference call at the TC and multitudinous instructions were given on how I should change doc dates for the signing... . Yikes! Maybe this is just a CA thing ...?

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/7/10 3:15pm
Msg #325814

Re:...........singing the blues, Sylvia,

..Not only did I not get paid the bwr was an Economics professor and expressed his concern about the lending industry's processes. LOL

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/7/10 3:55pm
Msg #325818

Re: He was probably singing the blues, Sylvia,

You make a very good point that it pays to check and to ask - and I've run into the same thing, where the appointment wasn't scheduled when it should have been. But neither should we assume that it can't be done. Like most other things, it depends on what the lender wants.

Also, when it's up to me to schedule the appointment, I'm especially careful about checking doc dates - and rate lock expiration dates. (And EOM RTC issues, of course.)

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/7/10 3:10pm
Msg #325813

...the sound of discard LOL