Posted by Robert/FL on 3/30/10 1:50pm
Msg #329612
FL Notaries - question re: F.S. 117.03
As you know, an alternative to taking an oath before a notary is a verification statement such as "Under penalties of perjury, I swear that I have read the foregoing document and that the facts stated in it are true."
If a document contains that statement, where the signer of the document has already sworn as to the contents of the document, if the doc also contains an acknowledgment certificate, does it still need to be replaced with a jurat? If the document requires an oath and the person has already signed the "under penalties of perjury" verification, they have already taken the oath, so taking a second oath before a notary is redundant. Is it therefore OK to use an acknowledgment instead of a jurat?
I ask because, there is a "Fact Information Sheet" set forth by the Rules of Civil Procedure which contains an acknowledgment certificate but the affiant signs a verification statement like the one above in addition. Should these always be replaced with a jurat?
I am inclined to say yes, it should be replaced with a jurat. But is the failure to do so a violation of F.S. 117.03? I'd like to hear others opinions on this matter.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/30/10 2:00pm
Msg #329615
This has been discussed ad nauseum already
"Rules of Civil Procedure "
Maybe you should find a forum for Civil Law notaries.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/30/10 2:03pm
Msg #329616
Addendum
"The Florida Rules of Civil Procedure lay down the rules that should be followed by Florida state courts. The rules govern civil actions and apply to all special statutory proceedings in the circuit courts and county courts except those to which the Florida Probate Rules, the Florida Family Law Rules of Procedure, or the Small Claims Rules apply"
| Reply by Robert/FL on 3/30/10 2:10pm
Msg #329617
...and...?
Form 1.977 of the Rules of Civil Procedure has a form that ends as follows:
UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY, I SWEAR OR AFFIRM THAT THE FOREGOING ANSWERS ARE
TRUE AND COMPLETE.
_______________________
Judgment Debtor
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF ....................
The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this ..... day of ..............., (year .....), by .................... who is personally known to me or has produced .................... as identification and who .....did/did not..... take an oath.
WITNESS my hand and official seal, this ..... day of ..............., .....(year)......
..........................................
Notary Public
State of Florida
My Commission expires: ....................
I don't see what you are trying to say, Sylvia, or how it relates to my original post. This does not just apply to civil law notaries, it applies to all notaries, and IMO it is much more pertinent to the office of notary public than our millionth thread this week about NREIS or "so-and-so doesn't pay".
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/10 2:18pm
Msg #329620
Wasn't gonna respond here..but
I say it calls for a jurat....now check with your boss (who is, ultimately, the document originator) and make sure it's okay with him/her as YOU can't make the decision.
Also, Robert, please remember that "so-and-so doesn't pay" posts are helpful to all notaries too - many notaries don't work for law firms and work with practice books....many work outside the brick and mortar and their business comes from nationwide companies - many, lately, who don't pay. So those posts are just as important. I'd suggest walking a mile in our shoes before you continue to look at us with the scorn that you do.
Thank you.
| Reply by Robert/FL on 3/30/10 2:20pm
Msg #329621
Re: Wasn't gonna respond here..but
I just don't seem to understand why any time I post something related to notarial law, as opposed to some loan signing topic, instead of looking at the content of the original post it immediately becomes some competition to prove that Robert doesn't know what he's talking about.
I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again... this is a website for professional notaries. I am a professional notary, I am just not in the same profession as the majority of the users on this board. That doesn't mean that my posts should be any less welcome than the NSA-related posts. I don't read the large majority of those posts because they do not interest me... if you are uninterested in non-signing-agent-related topics, then don't read them. Simple as that.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/10 2:24pm
Msg #329627
Robert...I answered your question...I don't intend
to start a fight...or continue one....but just as you'd like us to welcome your posts, I'm asking you not to be so scornful of those of us who exercise our notarial duties in other ways...
| Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 3/30/10 3:40pm
Msg #329657
Re: Wasn't gonna respond here..but
With all due respect, Linda, I don't think any scornful tone in this thread was established by the original poster.
The heading on the first response to his post, by Sylvia, was "This has been discussed ad nauseum already." That was followed by another posting by Sylvia that noted, "OK Robert I'll try and type slowly so even you can understand!"
I don't follow this forum as closely now as I once did, but it has become apparent to even me that Sylvia has a problem with posts by this participant. Why is not apparent. His posts do pertain to notarial matters, and they are not of the typical "How do I get started and steal your business? variety."
If a post contains erroneous information, it should be corrected, but demeaning the poster is unnecessary even in that instance. If the same poster repeatedly brings up the same topic, all that is required is to skip the post. This also obtains if another participant has a problem with an individual poster -- as Sylvia obviously does with this poster. This poster's identity is clearly stated., so it certainly is no problem just to go on to the next post.
Belittling comments are entirely unnecessary.
| Reply by Robert/FL on 3/30/10 3:42pm
Msg #329658
Good advice, Hugh, but...
with Sylvia, I am afraid your advice will fall on deaf ears.
| Reply by jba/fl on 3/30/10 3:54pm
Msg #329660
'It's an ill wind that blows no good' n/m
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/30/10 2:23pm
Msg #329625
Re: ...and...?
OK Robert I'll try and type slowly so even you can understand!
First, the issue of replacing an ack with a jurat has been discussed time and time again on here!
Second the codes you are citing have nothing (I repeat NOTHING" to do with regular notaries.
"The Florida Rules of Civil Procedure lay down the rules that should be followed by Florida state courts. The rules govern civil actions and apply to all special statutory proceedings in the circuit courts and county courts except those to which the Florida Probate Rules, the Florida Family Law Rules of Procedure, or the Small Claims Rules apply. In Florida, generally a civil action commences when a complaint or petition is filed. Once a complaint/petition is filed, the court clerk or judge will issue summons or other processes authorized by law to the defendant(s). A civil action can be classified into various stages that include: pleading stage, discovery stage, trial stage, and judgment stage"
The statutes and the Governors reference manual are clear enough on the duties etc of a notary public in the State of Florida.
And as most of the notaries on this forum are signing agents, then posts about those companies that don't pay are more pertinent to the members.
And in case you haven't noticed this forum caters to more than Florida notaries.
| Reply by PA_Notary_II on 3/30/10 2:28pm
Msg #329630
Dry as melba toast
CIVIL LAW NOTARY - AN OFFICE WHOSE TIME HAS COME IN THE U.S.?
By Nicholas G. Karambelas, Esq.
Copyright 2005 All Rights Reserved
[PUBLISHED IN MARCH 2005 ISSUE OF WASHINGTON LAWYER MAGAZINE]
[Vol. 19 No. 7]
Most of the nations in the world use a legal system that is based on either the civil law tradition or the common law tradition. The civil law tradition evolved from the given law of antiquity through Roman Law, the Codes of Theodosius and Justinian, the Salic Code and the Code of Napoleon. That tradition is the foundation of the legal systems of continental Europe, francophone Africa, South America and Middle Eastern countries that were under French dominion such as Egypt, Lebanon and Syria, While the legal systems of China and Japan did not evolve from the same given law as did the civil law, they developed legal systems that are functionally similar to the civil law tradition. In the civil law tradition, all law flows from a coherent set of legal principles contained in a written code provided or enacted by the sovereign. The civil law tradition has been described as "anything that is not permitted is prohibited".
While scholars have found traces of the common law tradition in ancient Roman law, the common law tradition essentially derives from the merging of the Saxon and Norman legal systems after William I conquered England in 1066. The common law tradition is the foundation of the legal systems of Great Britain (except Scotland), the United States (except Louisiana and Puerto Rico), Canada, Australia, Cyprus, India, Pakistan and Anglophone Africa. In the common law tradition, law is developed through the decisions of judges made in resolving actual cases. The common law tradition has been described as "anything that is not prohibited is permitted."
At the beginning of the 21st century, the each legal tradition is increasingly adopting essential features of the other legal system. The law of the common law systems is becoming more statutory. The law of the civil law systems is being made increasingly in judicial decisions and interpretations of civil code provisions. The civil law notary is but another feature of the civil law tradition that is receiving increasingly serious consideration in common law jurisdictions.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/30/10 2:30pm
Msg #329632
Re: ...and...?
Just to clarify even more. (Now where does this say that these rules apply to all notaries??)
"RULE 1.010. SCOPE AND TITLE OF RULES
These rules apply to all actions of a civil nature and
all special statutory proceedings in the circuit courts
and county courts except those to which the Florida
Probate Rules, the Florida Family Law Rules of Procedure,
or the Small Claims Rules apply. The form,
content, procedure, and time for pleading in all special
statutory proceedings shall be as prescribed by the
statutes governing the proceeding
unless these rules
specifically provide to the contrary. These rules shall
be construed to secure the just, speedy, and inexpensive
determination of every action. These rules shall
be known as the Florida Rules of Civil Procedure and
abbreviated as Fla.R.Civ.P."
| Reply by Robert/FL on 3/30/10 2:32pm
Msg #329634
Re: ...and...?
The R.Civ.P. don't directly apply to notaries, but the form provided in s. 1.977 is developed by state authorities and notaries are expected to sign off on the form as is.
We can have a million posts about DOTs and Mortgages, but I post a thread about a STATE-DEVELOPED FORM which requires notarization and this has nothing to do with notaries?
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/30/10 2:43pm
Msg #329638
Re: ...and...?
And it is the same issue! replacing an ack with a jurat!!!
Please, if this bothers you so much try contacting:
If you have any questions:
Contact The Florida Bar
For questions regarding content, authors, CLE
schedules, member benefits, and other Bar matters.
The Florida Bar
651 East Jefferson Street
Tallahassee, FL 32399-2300
Phone: 850/561-5600
www.FloridaBar.org
[e-mail address]
| Reply by Riley/FL on 3/30/10 2:52pm
Msg #329643
Re: ...and...?
Robert,
I read your posts and find them very interesting. I get that civil law statutes offer a lot of insight into the processes of the notarial act. Buuuttt.....(you saw that coming).... if not for the NSA business, I seriously doubt there would even be a forum as active as this one anywhere on the web. Frankly, there's just not that much to talk about in the notary public world. I believe you DO have a lot to add to this forum, your a smart guy, find a balance.
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/30/10 5:39pm
Msg #329687
Isn't this the same as the previous discussion about
acknowledgments that contain the phrase "and who took an oath" (which I've only seen coming out of FL)?
It stands to reason that if the form is taken directly from the FRCP, then that's the way it's intended to be used - the notarial certificate is supposed to be an acknowledgment. You have an option within the notarial certificate: "and who did/did not take an oath". Cross out the one that doesn't apply, and you're done. I don't know what the consequences of attaching a jurat to a form that calls for an acknowledgment might be, but if the document is going to be used in a civil action, I think you really need to stop analyzing and just stick to the prescribed form.
Just my opinion; I am not a lawyer, yadda, yadda, yadda....
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/30/10 5:47pm
Msg #329690
Yes, basically same discussion
" I don't know what the consequences of attaching a jurat to a form that calls for an acknowledgment might be"
The FRCP screwed up basically as this is the form Robert was indicating: (as you can see it is a sworn statement, yet has an acknowledgment on it, and it should be a jurat - as per Fl statutes)
UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY, I SWEAR OR AFFIRM THAT THE FOREGOING ANSWERS ARE
TRUE AND COMPLETE.
Judgment Debtor
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF ....................
The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this ..... day of ..............., (year .....), by .................... who is
personally known to me or has produced .................... as identification and who .....did/did not..... take an oath.
WITNESS my hand and official seal, this ..... day of ..............., .....(year)......
Notary Public
State of Florida
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/31/10 12:05am
Msg #329746
Re: Yes, basically same discussion
I hear you, but if it's in the FRCP it's an accepted form. Supposedly, these were drawn up by greater legal minds than ours...
Makes no sense to me, and that "did/did not take an oath" thing just adds to the confusion because it suggests that you have an option.
The NY notary manual (such as it is) does say that there are some notarial certificates that will contain elements of both jurat and acknowledgment. I guess something like this is what they are referring to, but the only time I've seen it is in documents coming out of FL. You guys have got to get your act together... 
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/31/10 8:49am
Msg #329766
Re: Yes, basically same discussion
"but if it's in the FRCP it's an accepted form"
I don't go by the FRCP, that is for civil law notaries etc, we "lowly" notaries are bound by the Florida Statutes. Robert would never come across that form as he is not a civil law notary. If you notice it is for a "Judgement Debtor's Designated Representative to sign.
According to the Florida statutes I would have to replace the acknowledgment with a jurat if a jurat is required on a certificate I came across.
| Reply by Robert/FL on 3/31/10 9:48am
Msg #329778
No, FRCP is NOT for civil law notaries
The FRCP is the set of rules for court.... they apply to everyone, not just attorneys and especially not just civil law notaries.
You are wrong, Sylvia. Hate to bust your bubble.
| Reply by Robert/FL on 3/31/10 9:51am
Msg #329780
And I *HAVE* come across this form
numerous times, that is why I brought it up.
| Reply by PAW on 3/31/10 9:19am
Msg #329771
Re: Yes, basically same discussion
As I've come to learn, as well as many other notaries, the legal minds that make up these rules and forms do not really know or understand the notary law. They just go by whatever they learned in law school or on-the-fly, which I can attest to is often incorrect information. But it is promulgated through the annals of bureaucracy for all to see.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/31/10 10:14am
Msg #329785
Thank you Paul:)
I believe if we were to be required to follow FRCP, then we would have been instructed to do so in the Governor's manual, or the Florida Statutes regarding notaries.
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