Posted by Robert/FL on 3/21/10 12:35pm
Msg #328256

Has anyone given an affirmation?

Has anyone ever had a client insist of doing an affirmation rather than an oath?

I have never had anyone object to taking an oath. Often times when you hear oaths administered by court clerks, etc., they will say, "Do you swear or affirm that...", so only the affiant knows whether they are swearing or affirming. I only say, "Do you swear that...", so if the person wants to do an affirmation instead they can advise me at that time, and I would notate that fact in my journal. IMO, just because oaths and affirmations are equivalent under my state's laws and each may be substituted for the other, they are NOT the same thing.

Just wondering if anyone has ever encountered that sort of situation.

Reply by JAM/CA on 3/21/10 12:39pm
Msg #328258

I always give people a choice. Oath where they swear to God or Affirmation where they swear on their own honor. I have a large percentage choose an Affirmation and Thank me for it.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/21/10 5:23pm
Msg #328288

That's not really in line with CA guidelines...

but then, there are no wording standards.

Nowhere in the handbook do they indicate that the Oath is where they swear to God.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 3/21/10 12:41pm
Msg #328259

California's Jurat reads:

"Subscribed and sworn to (or affirmed) ..." In my case, I always administer "Do you swear or affirm ..." thereby covering both and it is totally acceptable in the eyes of my State.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/21/10 12:45pm
Msg #328261

It's acceptable in FL also

Our standard jurat says "Sworn to (or affirmed) and subscribed..."

I just prefer to not leave that open for interpretation.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/21/10 12:45pm
Msg #328260

Yes...she refused for religious reasons... n/m

Reply by Michelle/AL on 3/21/10 12:54pm
Msg #328262

Here in the Bible Belt I run into it frequently.

As a rule I recite "Do you swear, or do you affirm, that...."

When I enter a home and I see a large amount of Christian symbols (door mat with scripture, cross on the wall, Bible on the kitchen table, religious music on the radio, etc.) it prompts me to ask the person if they want to take an affirmation or swear. Nine out of ten want to affirm and appreciate being given the choice.

Reply by Maureen_nh on 3/21/10 8:52pm
Msg #328323

Re: Here in the Bible Belt I run into it frequently.

I find that strange, not wrong, but strange. If I see the pictures,crosses, Bibles etc I usually add "so help me God" and the people are happy. I began doing this when I was asked quite pointedly why it wasn't included.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/21/10 12:56pm
Msg #328263

Affirmation? Every single time.

"Do you swear or affirm...."

And, I leave off, "So help you God..."

Even I (Christian faith) don't want to swear to God if I'm thinking straight.

I don't ask them if they are swearing or affirming. I feel like it's unnecessary to know and figured most notaries of modern day had gravitated to "swear or affirm".

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 3/21/10 1:04pm
Msg #328265

I never say..."So help you God".

It's not in the sample oaths in the AZ handbook. Is it in the Teexas handbook that way?

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/21/10 1:35pm
Msg #328266

Re: I never say..."So help you God".

The handbook I use goes very literally by law. It's from the AAN @ usnotaries dot com, so yes, it does have the "God" part in it drawing from the law and from the SOS.
This is the definition of an oath according to the Texas SoS.

"OATH: A solemn declaration, accompanied by a swearing to God or a revered person or thing, that one’s statement is true or that one will be bound to a promise. The person making the oath implicitly invites punishment if the statement is untrue or the promise is broken."

Affirmation definition is shown below.

"AFFIRMATION: The act of affirming the truth of a document, not an oath. "I solemnly affirm and declare the foregoing to be a true statement...” Note that an affidavit may appear in two forms: a sworn affidavit with oath, or an affirmed affidavit with affirmation. Each has the same legal import."

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/21/10 3:38pm
Msg #328275

Re: I never say..."So help you God".

I never say "So help you God" either; it is not required to make the oath valid and why start an argument with someone over it? In my opinion that is borderline offensive... it would be like making the affiant put their hand on the Bible (and I know that some states recommend that). I am Christian also, and although I don't have any religious objection to swearing personally, I can understand why many would not want to say "So help you God".

Like I said, I always say, "Do you swear that..." and have never had an objection.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 3/21/10 5:39pm
Msg #328290

I Always Say "So Help You God"...

...in my verbal wording when completing a jurat. Not one complaint or "raised eyebrow" in 14 years. Not one. And Missouri is supposedly in the "Bible Belt", although one online reference states St Louis is excluded. Don't know if that means West St Louis County or not...

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/21/10 2:27pm
Msg #328269

Re: Affirmation? Every single time.

same as Brenda....so help me ...?affirm.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 3/21/10 3:10pm
Msg #328272

Re: Affirmation? Every single time.

Same as Brenda . . "swear or affirm".

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/21/10 5:20pm
Msg #328287

I never use the "God" part -- even though I am quite religious, much like Brenda said, that's just something I respect too much to ask anyone to do. In CA, there is no specific wording we have to use for either the oath or the affirmation -- which, makes it nearly the same thing.

In fact our handbook is really clear about this:

"There is no prescribed wording for the oath, but an acceptable oath would be “Do you
swear or affirm that the statements in this document are true?” When administering the oath,
the signer and notary public traditionally each raise their right hand but this is not a legal
requirement."

By CA standards, it's an oath either way. And that's what matters --- your state law. Personal feelings about them being different don't count. You're a state official operating by state law --- so if the state sees them as the same, so should you.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/21/10 6:40pm
Msg #328303

Perfect response, Marian! n/m

Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/21/10 5:59pm
Msg #328293

I always use "swear or affirm"; for the purposes of the notarization, they're equivalent. Some people are simply uncomfortable with swearing an oath - it may have religious implications for them.

I have no reason to know whether they're swearing or affirming, and don't understand why you would make a notation to that effect in your journal. Granted, they're not the same thing but they serve the same purpose. It's not like an making an affirmation rather than an oath carries less evidence of truthfulness. Maybe you're overthinking this.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/21/10 7:00pm
Msg #328307

My journal has check boxes for "Oath" or "Acknowledgment"... if the person does an affirmation rather than an oath, it would be improper for me to record that an oath was taken in my journal, when an oath was not taken.

Yes, they are equivalent under Florida law... however, that doesn't mean they are interchangeable - there is no denying that "Oath" and "Affirmation" have separate and distinct definitions. As many stated above, an oath implies some sort of religious application. Affirmation is just that... someone is affirming, basically saying "Yes, the statements in this document are true", except that such a declaration is made under penalties of perjury like an oath.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/21/10 7:33pm
Msg #328310

"My journal has check boxes for "Oath" or "Acknowledgment"... if the person does an affirmation rather than an oath, it would be improper for me to record that an oath was taken in my journal, when an oath was not taken."

OK, that make sense. I'm still unclear why the distinction is made, but your journal has to be accurate.

"Affirmation is just that... someone is affirming, basically saying "Yes, the statements in this document are true", except that such a declaration is made under penalties of perjury like an oath."

I think we're splitting hairs... maybe the difference is that a person making an affirmation rather than taking an oath is not risking being struck down by a bolt of lightning...

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/21/10 8:02pm
Msg #328314

Oaths are not inherently religious...

Robert, I'm not sure where you get that idea. People put religious significance on an oath only if they want to.

The idea of an oath in judicial proceedings, as it would be for notarial acts -- is simply an act of conscience. Religious significance of that oath is up to the one doing the swearing, not the one administering the oath.

Like I said above, in California (and obviously it's the same for Florida) -- there is no legal difference between the two. In CA, the act of administering a jurat includes an oath. That's it -- an oath. They do not distinguish, though they allow for the word "affirmation" as an alternative, they are not distinctly different things from a legal perspective.

The problem comes from those of a personal perspective, for whatever reason they might object to an "oath".

As I mentioned above, I never bring up the idea of God... that's a personal thing, and I'm a state official.

You said your journal says "Oath" or "Acknowledgment" -- well, clearly, that's wrong. It should read, "Jurat" or "Acknowledgment".

I assume that's something you did... since you designed the journal yourself? That's what you said less than 3 weeks ago in Msg #325623:

"I am currently using a journal I designed myself and had printed and bound by Kinkos"


So, if the issue is a check box in your journal... why not design one with the proper labels for notarial acts?

___ Jurat
___ Acknowledgment
___ Oath/Affirmation

I include that third line separately in my journal because even though the Oath/Affirmation is inherent to the Jurat, there are are times when notaries (at least in CA) can administer an oath/affirmation without the Jurat.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/21/10 8:06pm
Msg #328315

Re: Oaths are not inherently religious...

Marian - my journal calls for "Type of Notarial Act". A jurat is not a notarial act, it's a certificate that a notarial act (i.e. an oath/affirmation) was performed. The *oath* is the act.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/21/10 8:38pm
Msg #328320

Re: Oaths are not inherently religious...

Actually.... the issuing of the notarial certificate is an act. Administering an oath is also an act... but can be separate from the issuance from a certificate.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/21/10 8:43pm
Msg #328321

Re: Oaths are not inherently religious...

In Florida, the statutes relating to jurats/certificates require that the certificate contain:

"(b) The type of notarial act performed, an oath or an acknowledgment, evidenced by the words "sworn" or "acknowledged." "

Nowhere in Florida statutes is the completion of a jurat considered a notarial act. The oath is the act, and the jurat is the certificate that the act occurred.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/21/10 10:03pm
Msg #328325

Re: Oaths are not inherently religious...

So then, by FL statues... an affirmation is not an act? If that's the case, what's the point of this thread?

Reply by jba/fl on 3/21/10 10:11pm
Msg #328326

Robert, robert, ....oh, honey...did you lose your job?

I don't understand why you don't just clear up these confusing things with one of those lawyers where you work. Or are they sick of your constant questions followed by superior posings?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/21/10 10:17pm
Msg #328327

Re: Robert, robert, ....oh, honey...did you lose your job?

Nah - he is just looking for attention from the adults.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/22/10 7:01am
Msg #328337

And Sylvia, I *AM* an adult. Stop being an ageist. n/m

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/22/10 7:01am
Msg #328336

No...

I find it refreshing to have an actual thread related to notary procedure rather than our 80th thread this month about NREIS.

Reply by jba/fl on 3/22/10 7:07am
Msg #328339

I do agree with that statement! n/m

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/22/10 7:03am
Msg #328338

Re: Oaths are not inherently religious...

92.52 Affirmation equivalent to oath.--Whenever an oath shall be required by any law of this state in any proceeding, an affirmation may be substituted therefor.

Reply by PAW on 3/22/10 7:34am
Msg #328340

Robert is correct ...

A "jurat" is the certification that an oath, be it a sworn oath or an affirmation (which under FL law is considered an oath) has been performed. An "acknowledgment" has two meanings: (1) the act of acknowledging (an execution) and (2) the certificate that an acknowledgment act was taken. It's unfortunate that the acknowledgment certificate doesn't have a different name. Thus the following acts are related to the associated certificate:

Oath -> jurat
Affirmation -> jurat
Acknowledgment -> acknowledgment

I agree, Marian, to your 'third' category where an oath or affirmation is given but there is not a recordation or certification of the act as evidenced by a jurat.

Reply by janCA on 3/22/10 12:49pm
Msg #328376

Do you solemnly swear ......

that the information in these documents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief, so help you God. Only had one raised eyebrow throughout the years so I asked if (she) would like to be affirmed and she stated yes. Her husband, on the other hand, did not have a problem.

Reply by JAM/CA on 3/22/10 12:55pm
Msg #328377

Re: Do you solemnly swear ......

There does seem to be a distinction between swearing or affirming.

http://www.ehow.com/how_4729003_which-one-barack-obama-took.html

Reply by jba/fl on 3/22/10 1:03pm
Msg #328378

Re: Do you solemnly swear ......

Ans you will see that "A Notay Public is responsible for guaranteeing the person appeared and was properly idenified and signed the written oath."

Your article....

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/22/10 4:13pm
Msg #328414

Re: Do you solemnly swear ......

In practice, I feel that - up to a point - the critical differences are in how the signer interprets them, and everyone seems to have their own idea about that. We just need to be sure that we're following whatever our own particular state laws require, while respecting the beliefs of the person in front of us.

Since California allows either, I usually say "Do you swear, or affirm under penalty of perjury, that..." without adding "under G-d". I've had some appreciate the option to affirm, others expect me to add the "under G-d" part, which I have no problem with. I just try to keep it generic in deference to the diversity of my community, while still getting across the seriousness of the statement.