Posted by Robert/FL on 3/4/10 3:51pm
Msg #325353

Jurat without "subscribed before me"

Are there any states where a jurat simply states "Sworn to before me this ____ day of _____, 20__..." without using the phrase "subscribed before me" to indicate that the affiant signed in the notary's presence? I see a lot of Florida notaries signing off on jurats like that, and although it isn't necessarily *required* under Florida law that the jurat indicate that the affiant signed in the officer's presence, it is certainly strange to me.

Curious as to whether or not other states allow a document to be sworn to without the affiant signing in the notary's presence... maybe that would explain why some Florida jurats are being drafted this way.

Reply by Riley/FL on 3/4/10 3:57pm
Msg #325354

I think "before me" covers it. One of your nine basic elements.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/4/10 4:16pm
Msg #325358

This wording is allowed in NY n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 3/4/10 4:24pm
Msg #325362

It is very unfortunate that many don't follow notary law to the letter. You'd be amazed at what we hear goes on in banks. They have a notary "notarize" paperwork later. That, of course, means that sign & stamp it. Without the procedure to viewing ID, administering an oath, and witnessing the signature, what is the point? The risk of fraud is ever-present when the actual signing of the document is not witnessed by the notary. It's an all-too-common misconception that the notary seal affixed makes the document valid of legal. A jurat requires the affiant to sign in the presence of the notary. I don't know of any states where there is an exception to that.

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 3/4/10 4:26pm
Msg #325364

i'm not certain on whether a specific state will recognize without certain verbiage, but its common for lenders to just slap a general jurat or acknowledgment that they feel is "universal." i think this is totally stupid and sadly, many inexperienced loan closers will just slap a signature and seal on these documents. that's why i carry loose acknowledgments and jurats with my state-required information.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/4/10 4:33pm
Msg #325367

CA has it's own special wording requirements. It baffles me

when I'm required to complete a CA Ack for a signing done in VA. The law prevails where the notarization is performed, not where the document is recorded. They always tell me if won't record in CA without the CA certificates.

Reply by Grammyzoom on 3/4/10 4:39pm
Msg #325369

I think some of the SC's don't really know.

We do a lot of California signings here in Arizona and are told many times that we must use the CA acknowledgements. We never do and we have never had a problem using the acknowledgements used in Arizona.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/4/10 4:40pm
Msg #325370

Re: CA has it's own special wording requirements. It baffles me

Yes, I've been told that, too. Had one back in, I think it must have been between July 1, 2007 and June 30, 2008, that one year where it was a requirement that the notary cert be on the same page as the signatures (in VA). Private notary job for a couple of docs in a mail-away package. I used my ack stamp on the signature page instead of the CA ack on the next page and it was sent back for a re-do with the acknowledgment now pre-printed with the CA ack on the signature page. The TC told their borrower that it was rejected by the recorder, but they had just gotten the docs back that day so I didn't really believe them.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/4/10 5:50pm
Msg #325390

Re: CA has it's own special wording requirements. It baffles me

I suspect that, whether it's the tc or the County Recorder, they may not stop long enough to notice that the document was notarized out of state, so they automatically reject something that doesn't conform to CA notary law. However, I always thought that all states had reciprocity (?) regarding notary laws in other states, at least to some degree. I imagine that must be very frustrating!

Reply by TheBoss/Fl on 3/4/10 4:50pm
Msg #325371

I understand your point and yes in Florida the affiant has to be present. I think it reffers to as not everyone swears and most doc that we notarize don't reqlly require swearing is more of affirmations.

A Florida Jurat should start like this: (you can purchase a FL Jurat Oath Pad with the NNA)

Sworn to (or affirmed) and subscribed before me this _______day of____,

_____________,________,by______________________________
Month Year Name of Person Swearing or Affirming

Reply by MW/VA on 3/4/10 4:56pm
Msg #325375

That assumes that material provided by NNA is compliant with

state requirements. I've found a lot of incorrect information coming from them.
I purchased their "Notary Law Primer" for my state & it was not correct.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 3/4/10 5:24pm
Msg #325383

Re: That assumes that material provided by NNA is compliant with

When I was a notary rookie, I too purchased the NNA primer for California and it also contained a lot of errors. No longer get info from them. ...

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/4/10 5:30pm
Msg #325385

I know that the affiant must be present when the document is notarized. My question is, are there any states where they don't have to *sign* in the presence of the notary, only take the oath, like in an acknowledgment.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/4/10 5:50pm
Msg #325389

Either I am very confused here or I'm not understanding your question at all, Robert.
A notary witnesses a signature. How can there be a jurat where the affiant isn't signing in the presence of the notary?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/4/10 6:09pm
Msg #325401

Re: Jurat without "subscribed before me" - Marilyn

I believe the OP was asking about a jurat certificate not having the words "subscribed" on the certificate - just "Sworn to before me"
I've seen those certificates and there is nothing in Florida notary law that says the jurat must say "subscribed before me" on them - although the statutes show a jurat with Sworn to (or affirmed) and subscribed before me. As long as the notary certificates contain all the elements required in the statutes then they are acceptable.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/4/10 6:36pm
Msg #325407

Re: Jurat without "subscribed before me" - Marilyn

To make it clear, I am asking if these are acceptable jurats:

Sworn to before me this ___ day of _______, 20___, by _______________, who produced ________ as identification.

-OR-

Before me, the undersigned authority, personally appeared ___________, who, being by me duly sworn, deposes and says that the foregoing statements are true and correct to the best of his knowledge and belief. He __ is personally known to me or __ produced a FL driver's license as identification.

=====================================

Notice, neither of those state anything about the affiant signing in the notary's presence. Are these acceptable in Florida, or in any other state?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/4/10 6:44pm
Msg #325408

Re: Jurat without "subscribed before me" - Marilyn

The second one you referred to wouldn't be acceptable as there is no date on it.

Nothing in the statutes governing notaries say that the word "subscribed" has to be on the jurat.
And actually the name of the person does not have to be on the certificate.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/4/10 6:52pm
Msg #325410

I need to disagree with you here Sylvia

The name of the person appearing before the notary IS required in our certificates....page 29 of the manual.."Some notarial certificates may vary in format, but any certificate should contain all these elements"

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/4/10 6:53pm
Msg #325411

Mutter..mumble..grumble..

one of those elements is "name of person whose signature is being notarized"

Reply by Vince/KS on 3/4/10 7:00pm
Msg #325412

Is another element venue? n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/4/10 7:23pm
Msg #325414

Yes Vince.. n/m

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/4/10 7:06pm
Msg #325413

Re: Mutter..mumble..grumble..

Linda, F.S. 117.05(4)(e) states that if all signatures on the document are being notarized, the name of the person may be omitted.

"(e) The name of the person whose signature is being notarized. It is presumed, absent such specific notation by the notary public, that notarization is to all signatures."

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/4/10 7:24pm
Msg #325415

Re: Mutter..mumble..grumble..

I'll continue to follow the manual and leave nothing to assumption or presumption....

Reply by Riley/FL on 3/4/10 7:39pm
Msg #325418

Re: Mutter..mumble..grumble..

You should create a cert where nothing is presumed or assumed. Stay out of trouble that way.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/4/10 7:59pm
Msg #325419

Re: Mutter..mumble..grumble..

Except that we can't create a certificate. The notarial certificate/wording is done by an attorney.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/4/10 8:09pm
Msg #325420

Re: I need to disagree with you here Sylvia

Sorry Linda, the statutes say that absent the info then the notarization is for all signatures.
So, the name of the person is not required on the certificate per Fl notary law.

However I always put the name of the person on the certificate.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/4/10 8:38pm
Msg #325423

Re: I need to disagree with you here Sylvia

The only times I don't include the person's name is if I know that the document will remain in my custody until I file it with the court. If it is a document that will be out of my control, I would rather not risk someone adding another signature to the document.

The official "Oath of Office" form for Florida officials has a jurat without the name of the person: http://election.dos.state.fl.us/forms/pdf/dsde56.pdf

Reply by jba/fl on 3/4/10 10:53pm
Msg #325434

Re: I need to disagree with you here Sylvia

"Linda, F.S. 117.05(4)(e) states that if all signatures on the document are being notarized, the name of the person may be omitted."

This is not how it is stated.

It is stated in 117.05 (4) (e)
(4) When notarizing a signature, a notary public shall complete a jurat or notarial certificate in substantially the same form as those found in subsection (13). The jurat or certificate of acknowledgment shall contain the following elements:

(e) The name of the person whose signature is being notarized. It is presumed, absent such specific notation by the notary public, that notarization is to all signatures.

It does not say that the name of the person may be omitted.

And Sylvia, you stated: "Sorry Linda, the statutes say that absent the info then the notarization is for all signatures.
So, the name of the person is not required on the certificate per Fl notary law."

You first statement is true, alluding to presumption of the signer(s). Your second statement is not true according to 117.05 (4)(e)

I submit that 117.05(4)(e) is an oxymoron that someone did not catch properly, or, that the leeway is to presume and assume for 1. out of state work brought into FL or 2. sloppy work on the part of someone in state.


Robert: as for your Oath of Office example not having the name in the body of the jurat and only the Title of the Office, the bottom of the form is a declarative Acceptance wherein the officer is to fill in personal information tying into the Oath. It is kind of a$$ backwards in that the notary's jurat is in the middle so that is an illustration of the presumption clause of 117.05(4)(e)

My only real problem in not inserting the name of the signer in either a jurat or an acknowledgement is the possible inclusion of another person who was not present at the time of the certificate completion.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/5/10 6:02am
Msg #325452

Re: I need to disagree with you here Sylvia

I agree that not inserting the signer's name leaves the document open to having other signatures added. Hence why I stated that I only do this in certain circumstances.

I think that this clause was left in, among certain others, because during the major notary law revisions in the early 90s, the legislature knew that many, many, many preprinted forms were out there that simply said "Sworn to and subscribed before me on ___________.", without the person's name. By not requiring the name of the signer in the jurat, all the notary would have to add is the type of identification.

Likewise, you notice that the statutory certificates do not "preclude the use of other forms", because it was common knowledge that there were already millions if not billions of deed and mortgage forms circulating in Florida that had old "long form" acknowledgments.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/5/10 7:51am
Msg #325455

Re: I need to disagree with you here Sylvia

No, if the name of the signer is not on the certificate then it is presumed that any notarizations are for the person who signed it. I had this discussion (along with other discussions) with the state senator who helped write the notary laws in Florida several years ago.

However, as I said, I always put the name of the signer in my notarial certificate, as I believe it is good practice to do so.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/4/10 5:59pm
Msg #325398

I would guess (and that's all it would be) that in any state where the wording only says "sworn to" and not "subscribed", that if there is a document involved, the latter is assumed. In theory, I suppose, you could also be completing a jurat for a verbally sworn statement, but to what would the notary be attaching their jurat certificate? Since we typically say that we only notarize signatures, it stands to reason that the "subscribed" part is understood.

You might just be over-thinking this.

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/4/10 4:55pm
Msg #325373

Key wording for CA ack....

Key wording of an acknowledgment is “personally appeared.” An acknowledgment
cannot be affixed to a document mailed or otherwise delivered to a notary public whereby
the signer did not personally appear before the notary public, even if the signer is known by
the notary public. Also, a notary public seal and signature cannot be affixed to a document
without the correct notarial wording.

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/4/10 4:56pm
Msg #325374

Re: Key wording for CA Jurat..

State of California
County of ________________
Subscribed and sworn to (or affirmed) before me on this _____ day of _______, 20__,
by _______________________, proved to me on the basis of satisfactory evidence to be
the person(s) who appeared before me.

Reply by Grammyzoom on 3/4/10 5:41pm
Msg #325387

Re: Key wording for CA Jurat..

There are several places you can download both the CA Ack and Jurat. One I just saw yesterday was on the Notaries Express homepage.

Even though my background as an Escrow Manager for many years was in California I still can't get over how complicated the paperwork is. We did a Sellers package last night. 78 pages and a lot of tax stuff. A couple of those tax papers have serious consequences and I often leave that paperwork with the Sellers so they have a chance to consult with their tax advisor before completing the forms.

Reply by John/CT on 3/4/10 5:50pm
Msg #325391

Connecticut's "sample" jurat simply states:

Subscribed and sworn to before me this _____day of ______, 20____

__________________(Notary Signature Line)___________________
Notary Public
Date Commission Expires:

Ref: Section 4.9; State of Connecticut, Office if the Secretary of the State, Notary Public Manual