Posted by Notarysigner on 3/7/10 12:36pm
Msg #325803

Last nite.....I got a call.....

..from a SS (their last eight comments on SC were five stars) asking specially if I would back date some loan Docs. I don't have any proof other than the telephone call otherwise I most likely would report them.

The request came like this. "Could you please help us? The bwr last date to sign was Fri and the notary didn't show up. It's still the weekend so could you go out today and put Fridays date on the Docs?"

I used the "who called me" search to find the name of the company.....Unbelievable.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/7/10 12:42pm
Msg #325804

We all get a call like that every now & then. Unfortunately, someone out there will do it.

Reply by Grammyzoom on 3/7/10 3:57pm
Msg #325819

It astounds me every time I get a call like that! We need to enlighten notaries to the dangers of back dating documents but I guess there will always be some who are willing to do it.

Reply by LisaWI on 3/7/10 5:14pm
Msg #325824

First let me say, I dont backdate and never will. But what I would like to see is actual evidence where a notary was prosecuted doing the dirty deed. What are these "dangers" of backdating? What do they actually do to a notary for backdating documents? Ive never seen any news articles or anything referencing this.

Reply by Alz on 3/7/10 5:23pm
Msg #325826

Maybe they "notary" have not been caught or exposed yet. n/m

Reply by Stamper_WI on 3/7/10 6:34pm
Msg #325828

I asked that question of our SOS. He said they can't do much except pull the commission and refer it to the DOJ for investigation. That is after documented proof.
Any one injured by the back dating, or in this day of foreclosures can certainly try to sue the notary which is at the least, a big hassle.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/7/10 6:35pm
Msg #325829

The thing is... how would anyone know that a notary backdated? The notaries who backdate typically do not keep journals either, so they could just say they notarized them on ____ date when in fact they notarized them on ____ date.

You ask "What do they actually do to a notary for backdating documents?". I can't speak for other states, but in Florida the first offense is typically a reprimand letter. But I'd like to know how many notaries have actually gotten caught doing it.

Then there are those who could simply say they made a mistake. I will be the first to admit that I did once backdate completely by mistake. That is, it was the 14th and I thought it was the 13th. I even dated my journal the 13th and the affiant signed by journal. Luckily, in this instance the original document remained in my custody the entire time so I was able to shred it and have the client come in to sign another one.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/7/10 7:09pm
Msg #325830

* Ive never seen any news articles or anything referencing this. *

Neither have I, Lisa. And, believe me. I have looked and looked for it.

Would greatly appreciate it if someone could produce a real situation.

Reply by desktopfull on 3/7/10 10:19pm
Msg #325842

Try this one from the NY Times: http://fort-greene.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/ suing-to-save-an-angel/

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/8/10 6:11am
Msg #325851

Good reference dtf, but still no proof that the notary

was punished for their bad act.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/8/10 8:47am
Msg #325859

Re: Good reference dtf, but still no proof that the notary

In this case, it's not a question of backdating - the notary is claiming that his signature was forged, which is a whole other can of worms...

Under NY law, if a notary was found to have backdated a certificate he or she would be subject to charges of forgery (felony). The problem is proving it - we're not required to use a journal here. I don't know if any notary in NY has ever been disciplined for backdating - it's difficult to check public records unless you know the name of the notary, and those type of cases would probably only be newsworthy on a REALLY slow news day... OTOH, the lack of proof that something happened is not proof that it never happened.

Reply by desktopfull on 3/8/10 9:46am
Msg #325864

Re: Good reference dtf, but still no proof that the notary

Since they are just starting the case it will be interesting to follow and see what happens, especially since it concerns backdating. I know FL won't hesitate to take your commission or send a notary to jail and/or fine them. If you check you'll find several cases, but I don't recall any of them as being just backdating docs. I know one case not long ago was where the same notary married the same woman to several different men (I believe the number was 17) in a month. They also went after the clerk of the court on that one too. Another case, a notary took another notary's stamp and used it on documents, they are prosecuting her.

Reply by desktopfull on 3/8/10 9:54am
Msg #325866

I'm sorry I thought I posted the story, not just the comments: try this one:
http://fort-greene.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/suing-to-save-an-angel/

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/8/10 2:03pm
Msg #325918

While we're constantly seeing "I don't want to go to jail!" on here, I think in reality there are very few instances where the SOS aggressively enforces action against notaries who break notary law, even when those instances are reported to the SOS. I don't think most of them care, unless it's something particularly heinous that facilitated the commission of a larger crime, where it can be used as additional proof of wrongdoing. But in those situations the notary usually goes down HARD, and I sure know that I don't want to expose myself to that risk, no matter how minimal it may actually be.

I had a situation on Friday, got an email forwarded from a SS that a TC just discovered 2 deeds of trust that never got recorded due to a problem with the legal description. One was mine from May 2009, the other was someone else from 2003. They wanted a new acknowledgment with today's date. My response - if they're not appearing before me today, which they're not, it would be illegal and fraudulent for me to complete an acknowledgment saying that they did. If you need a new one with a current date, I have to meet the borrowers again.

The other notaries response? I'll send it right away, just tell me where it needs to go. And this is from someone who has been commissioned from at least 2003. Sigh.

Reply by LKT/CA on 3/7/10 7:17pm
Msg #325831

<<<The request came like this. "Could you please help us? The bwr last date to sign was Fri and the notary didn't show up. It's still the weekend so could you go out today and put Fridays date on the Docs?">>>

If someone from the SS had been available by cell, they would have found out the Notary was a no-show and could have gotten someone else to come out. But because it's Friday, they think it's time to party and forget about work, then this is the result. The borrower could have called the SS to report the Notary was a no-show.

Wondering if this was a case of "Notary is not to contact borrower ahead of time", then the Notary would not have confirmed with the borrower and the borrower would not have the Notary's cell number to find out why they didn't show.

The SS and the Notary are to blame if the borrower lost a rate lock , a redraw or other additional charges because of this fiasco.

Reply by LKT/CA on 3/7/10 7:21pm
Msg #325832

should read...

....rate lock expired or charged $500 for a redraw....

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/7/10 7:33pm
Msg #325833

in reality, all they lose is a day of recission. n/m

Reply by Grammyzoom on 3/7/10 8:24pm
Msg #325837

Re: in reality, all they lose is a day of recission.

This is true and in addition to that, you can lose your ability to be a notary.

Federal law mandates that the borrowers are legally entitled to the 3 day right of recission. It is part of I believe the TILA "Truth In Lending Law". I have heard a lot of sob stories over the years but none are worth me risking my livelihood.

And by the way, a part of that law states that the consumer can waive their right of recission if they have a "bona fide personal financial emergency". I believe they must provide a waiver statement or affidavit stating the emergency, etc.

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/7/10 8:08pm
Msg #325834

I would agree with you here. Then again it does sound fishy that on a signing that had to be done, there was no follow through ? I have seen on this forum a post saying "notary no - show" but as mentioned before, what are the repercussions?

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/7/10 8:22pm
Msg #325836

Some SS ask you to sign an "work agreement" that says you must do what they say" I wonder if that would apply? Hmmmm I wonder what the courts would say?

Reply by theloangal on 3/7/10 8:32pm
Msg #325838

I believe the law & notary statutes per state would trump any "work agreement" a company would have you sign in which they ask you not only to violate the Notary oath but deliberately commit fraud.
That will never happen in my book.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/8/10 12:21am
Msg #325846

Yeah... even *if* one signed an agreement like that.... it wouldn't hold up in court. That's basic contract law that they teach in Business Law 101. In order for a contract to be enforceable, it can't involve anything illegal.

Thankfully, as notaries... especially in California, we have the law on our side with stuff like this. Good 'ole CA Gov't Code 8225:

"Any person who solicits, coerces, or in any manner influences a notary public to perform
an improper notarial act knowing that act to be an improper notarial act [...] shall be guilty of a misdemeanor."

Just asking us to do something illegal, is illegal. When I get those requests, I always inform them of this. I tell them that what they are asking is illegal and now that we both know that they know it's illegal, if they ask anyone else... they're putting themselve is legal jeopardy.

They usually respond by either hanging up on me or stammering out, "Really? I'm so sorry... I didn't know that."

Well, they're usually lying... they know. They just don't care.

Either way... sign whatever work agreements we want... if the work they want you to perform is illegal.... then it would be fun to see them try to enforce it.

Reply by Jack/AL on 3/8/10 12:54am
Msg #325847

All it takes to get into trouble after backdating

is one disgruntled borrower who decides, after the 3 day right of cancellation, that he/she really should not have gotten the loan. Then one call to a lawyer will get the litigation rolling by saying "the notary public falsified the documents at the request of the lender or signing service." Duh.......

Reply by Grammyzoom on 3/8/10 7:55am
Msg #325853

There is one circumstance wherein the consumer can

waive their right to rescind legally.

As I mentioned in my previous post, there is a directive in the TILA which gives the borrower the opportunity to waive the right to rescind. The instructions as to how this is handled are very clear and their statements must be legitimate and true.

This would NOT be the same as a work agreement between consumer and lender, which if based on an illegal act would be an illegal agreement.

Reply by SharonMN on 3/8/10 10:55am
Msg #325875

Here's some notary enforcement actions from MN


NOTARY
JUDI K LAWRENCE Lic# NO6185342

Against: Notary Location: CENTERVILLE, MN
Action: Other/Consent
Signed: 10/6/2009 $1000 Fine
File # NO 2606529 BD
Allegation:
Allege Resp notarized documents with incorrect dates.

NICOLE M ORIGAS SCHMIDT Lic# NO20223015

Against: Notary Location: MPLS, MN
Action: Revocation/Consent Begin: 10/30/2009 End: Indefinite
Signed: 10/30/2009
File # NO 2606529 BD
Allegation:
Allege Resp notarized a signature containing incorrect dates.

Reply by LisaWI on 3/8/10 4:01pm
Msg #325955

Re: Here's some notary enforcement actions from MN

Tada!! There is some real proof. Thanx Sharon!! So it can be a hefty fine and/or losing your commission by the looks of it. I think this should go with the other posts to Newbies for msg ???????. Sorry dont know which one it is.

Reply by Roland on 3/8/10 12:31pm
Msg #325891

I have brokers ask me to back date the docs. I have to educate them about this and they always tell me it's to the borrowers benefit. I alsways tell them it would never be worth it to me . .