Posted by Philip Johnson on 3/13/10 9:22am
Msg #327083

Notary lied, business owners got fried.

Sad story about a family going after each other and how a notary facilitated it.


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/03/evicted_funeral_home_owners_fi.html

Reply by Regal/NC on 3/13/10 10:21am
Msg #327100

File claim against Notary also!! n/m

Reply by Michelle/AL on 3/13/10 10:32am
Msg #327102

Good point, Regal! n/m

Reply by Michelle/AL on 3/13/10 10:31am
Msg #327101

Philip, I'm so glad you posted this.

I do a fair share of general notary work, especially at area medical facilities. Your post was just another reminder to me of how important it is for these type of "signings" (like all signings) to be handled with care. On occasion I have asked family members to leave the patient's room to allow me to privately quiz the patient to ascertain his/her knowledge about what's being signed.

Two weeks ago I received a phone call from Birmingham. I notarized a POA for this woman's uncle almost one year ago. He was hospitalized. I remember this appointment as if it were yesterday. The woman told me that I would be contacted by her attorney. Her uncle is now suing her because he is claiming that she forced him to sign the POA under duress. I'm not worried because I did my job correctly.

I think it's important for us to not assume that everyone who contacts us for work is honest. The more I read about stories like this one (the Oregon couple) the more suspcious I will be. Now that I think about it. Hmmm....I may update my website to address the subject of fraud.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 3/13/10 10:41am
Msg #327104

Thanks for posting. n/m

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 3/13/10 11:04am
Msg #327105

How could the notary not know that this was wrong??? If she was that sick, she should not have been doing any notarizations.

Reply by RickG/CA on 3/13/10 11:05am
Msg #327106

Report Not Entirely Accurate...

"To apply a notary seal to a signed document, a notary public must witness the signature."

Not an attempt to hijack the thread, just preaching to the choir that the general public (and even media) is misinformed about the duties of a notary public. Would any of you fine OR notaries confirm that you don't necessarily have to "witness the signature"?

Reply by Susan Fischer on 3/13/10 11:21am
Msg #327112

That was the first thing that jumped off the page for

me this morning, Rick.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 3/13/10 11:31am
Msg #327113

In AZ, we don't have to witness the signature on an ack. BUT

the signer does have to appear before us with proper ID and sign our journal in order for a proper notarization to take place.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 3/13/10 11:42am
Msg #327114

#5 from the OR manual on completing notary certs.

You have to identify the signer, which I take to mean witness the signature. What good is id'ing the signer if they present a signed document and say "yep that's my signature"?

1. Don’t advise or select the certificate for the client. If you do, you may be practicing law illegally.
28 State of Oregon Notary Public Guide
2. Certificate must fit the notarization. If the client asks for one certificate, but a different one is on the document, ask the client to contact either the sender or recipient to confirm which one is appropriate.
3. Read the certificate carefully.
• If it says “subscribed and sworn,” make sure you administer an oath and witness the signature.
• “County” is always the county where you perform the notarization.
• Watch the name blanks: In a certificate that says, “before me, ________________, personally appeared ________________,” the notary’s name goes first, then the signer’s.
• Fill in all the blanks. If you don’t know what to put in a blank, talk with signer and get the information. If he or she doesn’t have it, then you may need to get in touch with the sender or recipient.
• Draw a line to fill extra space. For example, if the name of the signer doesn’t fill the whole space left for it, put a line through the remaining portion so that no one can add to the certificate after it leaves your hands.
• Cross out inappropriate wording (e.g., “he/she executed it.”). The idea is that the certificate should read smoothly, with no doubt in the reader’s mind exactly who did what and when.
• Make sure all the elements of the certificate are there: jurisdiction, signer, date, etc.
4. Don’t “stamp and sign.” Create the certificate if there is no certificate given, the client has informed you about the type of notarization, and there is room on the document. Otherwise, attach a “loose” certificate.
5. Identify the signer. If you are creating the certificate, remember the certificate must identify the signer: “by Jane Doe.”
6. Affix the notary signature and seal properly. The ideal place for the notary seal is immediately left or right of the notarial certificate and notary signature. Do not put the seal over the abbreviation “LS.” Even though “LS” stands for place of the seal, placing the seal there could obscure some of the words or obliterate some writing.
• The imprint of the rubber stamp seal must be legible and in black ink. Also, according to Oregon Administrative Rule 160-100-110(3), “A notary public shall not place an imprint of the notary public’s official seal over any signature in a document to be notarized or in a notarial certificate, nor over any writing in a notarial certificate.” If your seal is smudged so that it is illegible, or is obscured by lines or other graphics on the page, initial the first attempt and re-stamp your seal as close as possible to the certificate.
• To be recordable, the notary seal, certificate, and the notary’s signature should be close enough to be contained on one microfilm image. That is one reason the certificate cannot be on the front side of the signature page and the seal on the back. Many times, however, the seal cannot be placed adjacent to the certificate and signature, but will fit in the margin. Indicate the seal’s position in the space provided for the seal (e.g., “See notary seal in left margin.”).
• If there is no space on the signature page, line out the certificate and either attach a loose certificate, or, preferably, type out the certificate on the back of the document. Check with the receiving agency before using the back of a document. Some places won’t accept it at all, and others will charge extra to record the page. Some agencies, such as the Immigration and Naturalization Service, may have trouble with an attached certificate. When in doubt, always check with the receiving agency.

Reply by PAW on 3/13/10 12:50pm
Msg #327117

That is what an 'acknowledgment' is!

>>> You have to identify the signer, which I take to mean witness the signature. What good is id'ing the signer if they present a signed document and say "yep that's my signature"? <<<

You do not need to see the document signed. An acknowledgment is the attestation by the signer that they in fact did sign the document and the signature is theirs.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/13/10 3:19pm
Msg #327125

Re: That is what an 'acknowledgment' is!

Plus, in states with a journal, you have a chance to see their signature and whether or not it matches the document they claim to have signed. In any event, I imagine most states (definitely CA) still require the signer to "personally appear before me..." Some states might allow a subscribing witness to be used, but doubtfully in situations that involve the transfer of real property - and certainly not by a person with a beneficial interest in the property - at least I sure hope not! I think this should have been a red flag.

This situation is a great testimony to having a set procedure and applying it in all cases. We just never know what's lurking beyond the lovely picture that we often see in the few short minutes we are in front of people. Naturally, there is still a need to use some good judgment, but in this case, it should have been an automatic reflex for this person NOT to notarize using only someone's word - especially when that someone was the beneficiary named in the document in question! [Of course, we wouldn't be reading the doc to find this out, but it would be a good idea to ask in a situation like that. Another procedure that could have prevented this situation.]

I guess this is another area where experience can play a role - but not all experience is equal. If it's experience from an ongoing effort to grow and learn, that's great, but the same experience over and over is meaningless. We see that all too often, don't we!

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now...

Reply by PAW on 3/13/10 12:39pm
Msg #327116

Re: Report Not Entirely Accurate...

Frequently, under the real estate conveyance statutes, the notary and/or witnesses must witness the signatures to the document conveying real property. In states like Florida, the statutes require two witnesses to the signature on documents of conveyance. Then the signature of the grantor(s) is acknowledged by an official authorized to take acknowledgments.

In this case, the OR statutes need to be examined to determine if the "official witness," aka the notary, needed to witness the signature to the document of conveyance. And from what I read, the notary, or any other person, is not required to witness the signatures.

Oregon Statutes - Chapter 93 - Conveyancing and Recording - Section 93.410 - Execution and acknowledgment of deeds.

Except as otherwise provided by law, deeds executed within this state, of lands or any interest in lands therein, shall be signed by the grantors and shall be acknowledged before any judge of the Supreme Court, circuit judge, county judge, justice of the peace or notary public within the state. No seal of the grantor, corporate or otherwise, shall be required on the deed. [Amended by 1965 c.502 §5; 1977 c.404 §1; 1999 c.654 §8]

Reply by Philip Johnson on 3/13/10 1:54pm
Msg #327120

I get that.

I just don't think that the notary was following some obscure Oregon code, section 93. Sounds like she was presented the doc by a family friend and asked to notarize it.It looks like now she's in heap big trouble at least with her friends.

Reply by Cari on 3/13/10 3:10pm
Msg #327123

hey, Robert, here's the time to shine....u r the general

notary agent aren't you?

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/13/10 9:04pm
Msg #327166

This story is mind-boggling. It all boils down to a bonehead notary who was either incompetent or deliberately violated the most basic of notary rules. Now she's claiming she was sick at the time, which also could explain her behavior - but I doubt it. It shows how vital knowledgeable notaries are and how much agony they can cause when someone puts the pressure on them to "cut corners." As far as I know, personal appearance (except with subscribing witnesses, but that's another story) is the main rule. Are we face to face with the signer? Did they already sign? Then they say they did. Or they sign in front of us. What was with the telephone call and "I thought I recognized the voice." OMG! Everything she did was wrong.

Reply by jba/fl on 3/13/10 9:10pm
Msg #327167

Not only notary, but pastor!!

"The Cox-Tanners now have a sworn statement from a family friend, Pastor Mary Overstreet Smith, saying she notarized documents transferring ownership to Yolanda Tanner – but Smith said she did not witness the signatures"

Reply by Susan Fischer on 3/14/10 1:26am
Msg #327177

Well there ya go. n/m