Posted by KimTOR on 3/16/10 5:37pm
Msg #327573

Out Of Curtiosty..... Loose Certificates

Just wondering how often you have to include a loose notarial certificate when you are doing loan signings, what's been the best procedure? Which documents more often then not do you generally have to attach them? Any companies in particular that require this? How many loose certificates do you bring with you to a singing?

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/16/10 5:42pm
Msg #327574

I keep a supply in my notary bag but I very rarely use them. I have an ack stamp and a jurat stamp and I will use that on the same page that the signer's signature appears, whenever possible.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/16/10 5:48pm
Msg #327577

I have rarely used loose certificates in conjunction with loan signings. About the only time it comes up is for a signing on a CA property, where they want a CA ack.

Reply by Grammyzoom on 3/16/10 6:51pm
Msg #327595

I have a question re CA acknowledgements

I realize that CA has specific requirement and verbage on their acknowledgements. However, if you are notarizing documents in a different state why would you need to attach a CA ack?

We live in AZ and never use the CA acknowledgements unless they are a part of the document itself.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/17/10 8:40am
Msg #327695

Re: I have a question re CA acknowledgements

I agree. They come back & say it won't record in CA without it. It's a PIA.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/16/10 7:34pm
Msg #327610

" About the only time it comes up is for a signing on a CA property, where they want a CA ack."

If the CA acknowledgment (or jurat) doesn't conform to my state's notary laws I wouldn't use it. I follow Florida notary laws no matter where the document is to be recorded.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/16/10 5:50pm
Msg #327578

Rarely have to attach loose certs...

for the most part they're usually pre-printed right on the doc.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/16/10 5:51pm
Msg #327579

I don't bring any loose leaf certificates with me to a signing because I never notarize at the table (unless I have to), then I have them in my car, just in case. CA is really picky about wording for acks and jurats, so we often have to substitute what's on the docs with LLs - I have CA-complaint jurat and ack stamps that I bought from here that I just stamp on the doc if there's room. (I don't think the ack stamp is available anymore, it was kind of problematic) but the jurat stamp is great. However, I more or less stopped using the ack stamp on recordable docs, like the DOT, just in case some county recorder didn't like it. I never had a problem with any rejection though. In any case, I've heard that LLs are preferable to stamps -why I don't know - maybe that's just a rumor.... As far as the best procedure to use LLs, that's also mandated by CA, but I don't know what, it any, OR rules might be.....

Reply by Tess on 3/16/10 5:53pm
Msg #327580

'because I never notarize at the table (unless I have to)' ? n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/16/10 5:56pm
Msg #327581

Re: 'because I never notarize at the table (unless I have to)' ?

Many notaries complete their certs after the fact (which I guess could explain 20-30 minutes at the table for a full refi)...apparently she does too...

Wouldn't fly here in FL...

Reply by Tess on 3/16/10 6:04pm
Msg #327583

Re: Thanks Linda, would it fly anywhere??? n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 3/16/10 6:36pm
Msg #327590

Yes, it flies in California

Our handbook is silent on the issue so it's at the notary's discretion as to whether to notarize at the table or not.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 3/16/10 6:39pm
Msg #327591

Re: Yes, it flies in California

Oftentimes, if it's not specifically mentioned, the SOS will make up their own rules. We all know that it's the best practice to notarize at the table. If something like that ever went to court, I bet the notary would lose.

Reply by LKT/CA on 3/16/10 6:55pm
Msg #327598

Re: Yes, it flies in California

Oftentimes, if it's not specifically mentioned, the SOS will make up their own rules. We all know that it's the best practice to notarize at the table. If something like that ever went to court, I bet the notary would lose.

Reply by LKT/CA on 3/16/10 6:59pm
Msg #327600

Re: Yes, it flies in California

<<<We all know that it's the best practice to notarize at the table.>>>

That's a matter of opinion and while many do share your opinion, just as many do not.

<<<If something like that ever went to court, I bet the notary would lose.>>>

Lose against what? No law exists that addresses it.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/17/10 12:26am
Msg #327661

Re: Yes, it flies in California

Actually I am going to try to find it online but I am pretty sure that a Notary from the Sacramento Area about 3 or 4 years ago was quite punished in a Court of Law for not having notarized at the table ... I have made it my practice to do it at the table, what's the point to do it later ... it needs to be done anyways!
Here in PA it is costly if you get caught doing so.

Reply by Tess on 3/16/10 6:41pm
Msg #327592

Re: Yes, it flies in California

Please explain, how can you notarize and have someone in front of you, when you are not notarizing when they are there, but later??

Reply by Roger_OH on 3/16/10 6:51pm
Msg #327594

Re: Yes, it flies in California - and Ohio too

They don't have to be in front of you when you complete the certificate, only when they sign the doc. While I agree it's a good practice, it's not a requirement.

Sometimes BOs want to just get signed and get you out, not sit around another 20-30 minutes while all the certs are completed. I'm just sayin'...

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/16/10 6:54pm
Msg #327597

Re: Yes, it flies in California - and Ohio too

"Sometimes BOs want to just get signed and get you out, not sit around another 20-30 minutes while all the certs are completed. I'm just sayin'...:

That's why, prior to going, I partially complete the certs with the required info (venue, names, dates, my name under sign. line, etc etc)...at the table they sign, I sign and stamp...quick quick one two three.....notarization complete. I don't have to complete certs at the table except in the case of a mistake in the signing when I have to swap out from the borrowers' copies.

Reply by Tess on 3/16/10 6:58pm
Msg #327599

Re: Yes, it flies in California - and Ohio too

So you are saying, if you forget to stamp one and it gets returned to you, you can just stamp it and its fine to do that? Here in PA, not allowed, we have to return to the borrower!!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/16/10 7:02pm
Msg #327601

Me, Tess? n/m

Reply by Tess on 3/16/10 7:05pm
Msg #327603

Re: No, Roger and Lisa. n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 3/16/10 7:23pm
Msg #327606

Re: No, Roger and Lisa.

Wondering how "forget to stamp one" became part of the dialogue. Tess, you asked "would it fly anywhere" and I answered "Yes, it flies in California". Roger says it would fly in Ohio too. It may "fly" in other states too.

And to answer your other post, the certificate is simply a written testament by the notary to the fact that the signer "personally appeared, was satisfactorily ID'd and signed in their authorized capacity". Whether or not the cert is completed in the signer's presence - as far as CA is concerned - is at the Notary's discretion, period.

Reply by Tess on 3/16/10 7:30pm
Msg #327608

Re: No, Roger and Lisa.


She said, "I don't bring any loose leaf certificates with me to a signing because I never notarize at the table (unless I have to)", that means stamp as well, in my books!

But, again if the cert comes back because you forgot something on it, do you have to go back or not? If so, it would mean that it needs completed in front of the person signing it, not later at you own discretion.

Reply by Roger_OH on 3/16/10 8:43pm
Msg #327629

Re: No, Roger and Lisa.

When we do a general notary signing, we give the document back to the signer. For loan signings, we take the docs with us. Again, a good practice if you do certs/stamp at the loan signing, but not a requirement here.

If I ever miss a stamp, the TC sends it back to me and I stamp it. Nothing alters the fact the the signers already appeared before me and signed on the certificate date, so having them re-sign is not necessary.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/16/10 8:48pm
Msg #327632

Re: No, Roger and Lisa.

Roger, we can't do that here in FL - once the document is out of our hands, no changes can be made to the certificate (corrections or otherwise) without going back out and re-visiting the borrowers.

In FL..

Reply by Roger_OH on 3/16/10 8:58pm
Msg #327635

I understand, Linda...

and that makes sense since FL requires you to notarize while signer is present. Not here, though. The certificate is the notary's domain, not the signer's, and if there's a correction to the certificate after the fact I can make it without the signer.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/16/10 9:49pm
Msg #327646

Re: Yes, it flies in California - and Ohio too

Indeed it is a *drive all the way back to the borrower* deal in PA

Reply by Grace Gully on 3/16/10 8:12pm
Msg #327622

Re: Yes, it flies in California *Courtesy*

I too never notarize at the table, appear before the notray, not sign and stamp before the borrower or signer. As far as 20 or 30 minute signings you still have to go back to your office and finish up the loan package before shipping, total time on a good or easy loan about an hour for me.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/16/10 8:02pm
Msg #327619

It actually makes sense if you think about it...

It is like the issuance of birth certificates, for example. Yes, the parents typically get a birth certificate for their child shortly after it is born. But that doesn't mean the state agency responsible for holding birth certificates loses the record or completely forgets the birth. If the child goes back 30 years later, to the Bureau of Vital Statistics, they can get a new birth certificate, whereby the state certifies that the child was born at a certain time and place.

Similarly, if John Doe personally appeared before me at 12:03 p.m. on March 10, 2010, and presented a Quit Claim Deed dated March 7, 2010, attested by Charlie Crist and Heather Slager as subscribing witnesses, whereby he transferred a piece of property located at 123 Main Street, Tampa, Florida, to his wife Mary Doe, and John Doe acknowledged to me that he voluntarily executed that instrument for the purposes therein expressed, I can certify that act at the time the acknowledgment was made, or I could certify that act the following day, or the following month or year. Whether I "issue" my acknowledgment certificate on the day of the acknowledgment or a month later, the facts contained in the acknowledgment certificate itself, including the date the instrument was acknowledged, does not change.

Of course, this is all in theory... this is not allowed in Florida as it is required that the entire notarial act, including the affixing of the seal, take place in the personal presence of the person whose signature is being notarized. But to me at least, it makes sense why it would be allowed in other states.

Reply by janCA on 3/16/10 5:59pm
Msg #327582

I use them all the time since most documents do not have the compliant CA wording on them. I do have a jurat stamp which I use quite often instead of the loose cert, but I have to attach the ack cert 99% of the time.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/16/10 6:15pm
Msg #327586

Me, too, Jan.

I always make sure I keep an ample supply - on both letter and legal size for both acknowledgments and jurats, although I use less of the latter, since I have my jurat stamp. I've created my own in Word, so I just print more out as I need them.

I think this is one of those that will vary greatly from state to state. The answers, though, tell me a lot about how people can get through signings as fast as many claim to do. Replacing certs takes some time. I try to do as much as I can in advance, but the next priority would be do complete everything at the table. There have been very few circumstances where I've done the rest later, and only when the borrowers are in a time crunch.

Reply by desktopfull on 3/16/10 6:26pm
Msg #327588

What if you got sick, in an accident or just anything could happen? The borrower's would have to re-sign their documents due to you not notarizing the documents. And you would be liable for the additional expenses incurred. At least if they are notarized all someone has to do is drop them off for you. I can't believe that you posted that you don't notarize at the table on a national forum.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/16/10 8:05pm
Msg #327620

Boy, did this thread get hijacked!

And, desktopfull, I can't believe this is such a shock to you that many do not notarize loan docs at the table. MUCH has been posted about this over the years, and the consensus has always been that many states require it and many states do not. It's practically unheard of for a CA escrow officer to notarize at the table. One-time California uber-notary Kelley Robertson once posted she went home, had a glass of pinot (or was it Reisling?) and settled in notarizing the day's docs. I can't say I condone any alcohol consumption during this process - but that aside, that's just the way it is.... I will say, however, that whenever there's time, I will "prenotarize": fill out everything but my signature and stamp and then take care of that at the table - if it's not too disruptive - or if I'm up against the clock for drop-off deadline.

Reply by Tess on 3/16/10 8:45pm
Msg #327631

Just debating an issue, people!

I am not an attorney, but I find it interesting that just because it is not written word for word that it is requirement for those of you to notarize at the time that the person is in front of you, that a lot of people interpret that to mean you can notarize it anytime you wish to? To me, it is more logical to accept the fact that the whole process is meant to be done at the same time, even, if not stated that way by your SOS!

Reply by LKT/CA on 3/16/10 6:48pm
Msg #327593

<<<I don't bring any loose leaf certificates with me to a signing because I never notarize at the table (unless I have to), then I have them in my car, just in case. CA is really picky about wording for acks and jurats, so we often have to substitute what's on the docs with LLs....>>>

Me too....it is rare that I notarize at the table. Only when the signing is near the FedEx or UPS cutoff time will I notarize at the table and my GPS will find a shipper closest to the borrower. However, I always have extra certs as I do a lot of general notary work. I have a jurat stamp but for loan docs, I like to be consistent so both the ack and jurat certs are LL (loose leaf).

And to answer the OP's question: For all notarizations, (loan signings or general notary work) regardless of where the docs will be filed, I rely on my own state's notary rules/laws, thus I use CA compliant wording for ALL signatures I notarize.

Reply by MichiganAl on 3/16/10 6:09pm
Msg #327584

Split closing

About the only time it comes up for me is when I'm doing the second part of a closing. Say a husband signed elsewhere, his signature was notarized and then docs were sent to me for the wife to sign her part. I'd then attach loose certs for my notarization.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 3/16/10 9:00pm
Msg #327636

Dittoes. And for docs for CA PIQs (property in

question), I simply line out reference to the CA part, and stamp, since I operate under Oregon law.

As an aside, when I do attach a loose cert, I have to staple it in the corner. Oregon really means attached, when it says attached. I support that, because staples leave obvious holes - that line up - and if someone were to dis-attach my cert, if it were ever an issue, a judge would likely take Judicial Notice that my cert was indeed attached to that doc when compared to my chronological journal, and my word as a commissioned Notary Public, all things being equal.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/17/10 6:24am
Msg #327677

Re: Dittoes. And for docs for CA PIQs (property in

<< I simply line out reference to the CA part, and stamp >>

I do the same. I always try to amend the existing notary cert whenever possible. If not, then I use my ack or jurat stamp. I very rarely use loose certificates but I do carry them with me just in case, and at the bottom I notate the name and date of the doc it is attached to and the number of pages in the doc.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 3/17/10 10:47am
Msg #327707

Good one, I forgot that part. n/m

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/16/10 7:47pm
Msg #327614

I am going to re-post my response from the last thread we had about loose certificates:

=========================================

The best way to deal with this issue would be to try to avoid loose certificates all together. There are all too many notaries who see one little flaw in the certificate, and instead of correcting that one flaw will attach an entirely separate page. I would suggest that prudent notaries get stamps with their statutory wording to stamp it directly onto the document requiring the notarized signature. Or - it may not look pretty, but IMO it is better to hand-write the certificate on the document than to attach a loose certificate.

I have had situations where the certificate was simply so bad and the format of the document was such that a loose certificate was required. In those instances, I would do as others have suggested, and simply reference the document in the certificate itself, if your state allows (I know California does not allow it in the actual certificate). For example:

=======================================

STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH

The foregoing Quit Claim Deed, consisting of this certificate and two preceding pages, executed by John Doe and witnessed by Nancy Doe and Jane Doe, and dated December 8, 2009, for that certain property situate in Hillsborough County, Florida at 123 Main Street, Tampa, Florida, was acknowledged before me by the said John Doe to be his voluntary act and deed. John Doe is personally known to me.

(Signed) Notary Public

=======================================

Of course, there are other alternatives. You could punch a hole in the top corner, run a ribbon through the pages and emboss your seal over a foil seal on top of the ribbons, but this makes it impossible for the document to be recorded or photocopied, and unless the document is going to a foreign country, the document recipient is likely to laugh at you. You could also emboss the two pages together, but , this is certainly not fool proof.

In reality, there is really nothing the notary can do to prevent that certificate from being separated and attached to another document. However, the instances of that occurring are rare. Bottom line is, the notary fulfilled all of their duties by checking ID, administering the proper oath, and completing an appropriate certificate. The notary's responsibility ends there, and they have no control over what happens to the document.

The best way to protect yourself is simple: keep good records. If you used a loose certificate, write that in your journal, and write a decent description of the document notarized (i.e. for a quit claim deed, also write the location of the property and the names of the grantees).

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/16/10 7:50pm
Msg #327615

Another safe guard to tie a loose certificate to the original document is to notate your journal page and entry number on the bottom of the loose page, to signify that loose certificate goes with the document notarized on that entry.

Just an idea.

Reply by KimTOR on 3/16/10 8:37pm
Msg #327625

Some exceptionally good ideas!