Posted by jba/fl on 3/20/10 10:37am
Msg #328173

Proper ID essential - another view

My sister sent me an email today in response to our conversation of last week re: how does one get by with no ID. I am including it here for another viewpoint of the impact of one's decision not to stay current.:

"Working in a bank, I can't express how frustrating it is to try and help someone who doesn't have valid ID. They come in wanting to cash checks, or withdraw hundreds of dollars, or get a notary, and they don't have the most basic as a state ID. Or their ID is out of date, which still means it's worthless! If I documented out of date ID on any transaction and our auditors saw that, I would be out of a job. So that puts me at a risk as well if they don't have proper ID. I have to hold up the entire line so I can run it by my supervisor so we can have two people tell this person the same thing, to get valid ID. How many times have I heard a friend of the person try to vouch for the person without id? As if I could take their word for it even if I wanted to.
How does she drive? Even if she's an excellent driver and never does anything to get pulled over for, what will she do if she's in a random spot check? Or if her tail light is out? What about if someone rear ends her car? Telling the cops she forgot it at home won't work, they can still take her name and birth date and run her through the system that way and see she's driving without a valid license. Don't you ever watch 'Cops'?
When Daddy passed away, the funeral home even wanted valid photo ID before they'd proceed with anything more than picking him up. I remember that and what a sad day it was. I can't imagine what it would have been like if we didn't have that card. What on earth do you do then???
...(edited) ... They aren't very expensive either. One hour of inconvenience now will save weeks and months of frustration later.
...this can only turn into trouble for you if you ignore it."

My mother (83) has let her DL expire without getting a state ID. Her military dependent ID has also expired and she has been putting that renewal off as well....the inconvenience of it all, not feeling like it, etc. If there is an excuse an aging parent can give, I have heard it. I'm in FL, she's in WA, so I can't just zip ovr one day and drag her out. My sister and brother think I'm too bossy....etc. So now I am enlisting my other out of town family and my mother's friends, with only OOT sister responding.

Dear friends: join with me and please check your parents ID's - save them some possible grief later. I am urging you all.

Another thing: if you have kids and don't have a will, you are letting the state decide for you on custody issues as well as everything else. And if you are a grandparent who babysits from time to time without a POA to present to a health care provider, what are you leaving to chance there? Many states do not have grandparents rights in place, and how are you to prove that anyway? How stupid is that? (Nag, nag, nag...)

Reply by jba/fl on 3/20/10 10:46am
Msg #328174

Another thought:

Mother's Day and Father's Day will be here before we know it. This would be the perfect gift for them and yourselves to get these things taken care of. I would rather have a POA for health care authority as a gift than flowers that will die and candy that will further expand my waistline.

I would rather my mother be irritated at my insistances than have a birthday card, money or gift.

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/20/10 10:46am
Msg #328175

This is a very timely post. I sincerely hope everyone reads this. So far in our family our elders have taken care of plenty business. Both grandma's even added names to accounts so there would be no probate problems. Thank for a positive post (proper ID).

Reply by Stamper_WI on 3/20/10 12:13pm
Msg #328181

My dad has Alzheimers. He thinks his state ID IS a drivers license. No he does not drive, he can barely walk. This is important. Going into a nusrsing home is a nightmare at times because they have no ID.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/20/10 12:24pm
Msg #328182

I do a lot of work in Nursing Homes and also in the sad end of the life dpts of hospitals and when a patient does not have a proper ID I most of the time take 2 Nurses as witnesses and never had a problem. They vouch for the patient's ID.
Sometimes if I am lucky so to speak thre is a family memeber there that has nothing to do with the doc to be signed and I get them tou vouch as well.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/20/10 1:01pm
Msg #328185

Corinne, how do you get this to work? Your handbook provides for *A* credible witness - Sec 12.1 - "...or the oath or affirmation of a credible witness who is personally known to the notary and who personally knows the individual." It does not provide for two not personally known to you. I didn't see a CW form in your handbook but many state certain things that the CW's must attest to - can these nurses really do this? And the nurse must be *personally* known to you too...

Also, IMO I'd hesitate to use a family member - whether they're named in the document or not, there could well be a conflict of interest just by virtue of their relationship.

MHO

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/20/10 1:06pm
Msg #328187

Re: Proper ID essential - another view...further

Your handbook also defines Personal Knowledge: ""Personal knowledge" as
defined in the amended Notary Public Law means having an acquaintance, derived from association with the individual in relation to other people and based upon a
chain of circumstances surrounding the individual, which establishes the individual's identity"

IMHO Just knowing the nurses there IMO doesn't qualify for CW...

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/20/10 2:45pm
Msg #328198

I did address that matter by Calling the State and when one is a resident in a Nursing Home, a nurse can be a credible witness as she not only knows the patient but also has access to the patient's records and as far as knowing the nurses in the Nursing homes around here, after many years I got to know many of them and I use the ones I know.
I only had maybe 3 or 4 instances where the patient had no ID and needed to have some documents notarized (went back and looked in my records and they were all living wills related to medical care only).

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/20/10 5:42pm
Msg #328201

I'm surprised that the nurses would agree to do that. In any of the facilities I've been to here, they have rules prohibiting the staff from acting as witnesses - probably for liability purposes.

Reply by LKT/CA on 3/20/10 6:08pm
Msg #328203

<<<I'm surprised that the nurses would agree to do that. In any of the facilities I've been to here, they have rules prohibiting the staff from acting as witnesses - probably for liability purposes.>>>

Some places will, some won't....that's been my experience.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/20/10 9:05pm
Msg #328220

We are not talking nurses in a Hospital, we are talking long term care nurses in Nursing Homes, and yes most of the time the head nurse that knows the patient will do it ... for me it was about 3 years ago ... nothing yet of the sort since I got back on track after a long 2 year forced vacation.

I do recall one of the few I had a signer with no ID, his name was Don and I will never forget him as he had the most beautiful blue eyes I have never seen ... but he needed a PoA signed so his son could go get him I can't remember what at the Bank and he had been in the Manor Care for about 18 months, the nurse on duty was used . A few months later I found out he had passed away when I went in for another notarization.

I also remember calling the State and asking if I could do this and the answer was *yes*.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/20/10 6:22pm
Msg #328205

I agree about the family member potentially being a conflict of interest, even if the law doesn't explicitly say it is. We never know what the dynamics might be within the family, and when it comes to making life and death medical decisions about a person, you can't be careful enough.

These situations are very difficult and it would sure be nice if people made more of an effort to take care of these issues before it becomes a challenge. And this doesn't even get into the issue of competence!

Reply by MW/VA on 3/20/10 1:34pm
Msg #328192

Great post, Julie. The only ID nursing homes require is

their insurance card!

Reply by LKT/CA on 3/20/10 1:59pm
Msg #328194

Great topic of discussion. At networking meetings I give a 60 sec presentation to include "ID for a senior who is no longer driving". I've started expanding that to "everyone should have both a DL and an ID card". Some of the POA appts I do at hospitals and assisted living facilities, the DL is expired [even though I asked and was told it was current during the initial call] so I lecture the family member about having current ID as it will be a problem going forward if they need anything else notarized for their family member. Now I've started requiring people to provide the expiration and issue dates of the ID card - before I go to the appt - so they are forced to look at the card and admit that it really is expired or current.

In CA, a senior ID card is FREE for those 62 or over and lasts 10 years. The regular state ID card is good for 6 years. I got an ID card for my 16 year old and it took 20 mins from start to finish at one of the busiest DMVs in southern Calif. While the line for walk-ins was out the door and around the building, I walked right up to the window and was finished in 20 mins. The appt system does work and there's no excuse to not take the senior - or yourself for your own ID card - to the DMV.....one appt for a 10 year ID card? No excuse !!!

P.S. If you're not 62, the ID card ain't free.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/20/10 2:26pm
Msg #328197

"everyone should have both a DL and an ID card".

We cannot do this in VA. You can have one or the other issued by the state, but not both.

Reply by LKT/CA on 3/20/10 6:14pm
Msg #328204

<<<We cannot do this in VA. You can have one or the other issued by the state, but not both.>>>

That's interesting....another option would be to have a passport, it's good for 10 years. Then if your wallet is lost or stolen, you'll always have some form of ID to continue transacting business.

With the CA ID or DL, it's exactly the same, one just says Driver License and the other Identification - even the serial # is the same.

Reply by Maureen_nh on 3/20/10 11:18pm
Msg #328231

We have the same reguation in NH . Because I am so immersed in this ID business I thought that just in case it would be a good idea to have both. No go. I am going to propose to a legislator that we fix this somehow, at least for people over 60 or so. NH is very liberal in it's ID procedures so I have managed to ID almost everyone even if it meant bibles and phone bills ect. for some of our older people.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/21/10 7:12am
Msg #328240

<< Because I am so immersed in this ID business I thought that just in case it would be a good idea to have both. No go. >>

Yup, I had the same thought and that's how I found out, too.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/21/10 12:38pm
Msg #328257

In Florida we use to be able to have both a D/L and an ID card... i think that the implementation of the Real ID act has ended that practice, but IMO it was convenient to have two cards, and you could always leave your D/L in the car to make sure you have it while driving, but carry the ID card with your for regular ID purposes.

Both my ID and my D/L had the same serial number.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 3/20/10 7:59pm
Msg #328213

This is an important, Ten Star post. The dramas found

in most family dynamics are so hard sometimes. (And, I envy you your relationship with your sister, Jules. Would that all sisters could be so candid and caring.)

To Do:

1. Verify/update our Parents' IDs.
2. Discuss and make Living Wills (Medical Directives) for all family members.
3. Every adult family member make/review/update Will.

Throw big family picnic/party for being so sensible and caring about the folks we leave behind, even as we are leaving them.

Someone write a song: "Doin' the Notary Nag".

Reply by Mary Ellen Elmore on 3/21/10 2:29am
Msg #328236

I am a Member of a State Recognized Native American Tribe.

We have the legal authority to issue ID's that by law are equal to State issued ID's.

We do this.

Why then do the banks tell me that it is NOT a valid ID?

I have been had a bank, just last week tell me they can not accept a military ID because it does not contain the signature of the person it identifies.

Wal-Mart check cashing told a friend, while I was standing there, and showed her a list of acceptable documents, that a passport is not on the list so they could not cash her check.

What truly needs to happen is for people to be educated about the laws and understand that there are more legal identifications besides a state issued ID card or a driver's license.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/21/10 3:39am
Msg #328238

Very interesting point - and good question!

"We have the legal authority to issue ID's that by law are equal to State issued ID's."

Just curious, is that by Federal law or state law? This is a very important distinction, since our state laws govern what we, as notaries, can or cannot accept as ID.

Reply by Mary Ellen Elmore on 3/21/10 5:54am
Msg #328239

Re: Very interesting point - and good question!

Federal Law states that what is legal in one state has to be acceptable in the other states--if not a marriage that occurred in one state, would be invalid when residency was established in another state.

Is my TN DL valid for ID when I travel to other states? Is it valid as a DL when I am in other states?

Same thing with my Tribal ID--it is equal to a SC State issued ID and just as a State issued ID is acceptable proof of ID in the other 49 states, my Tribal ID is also.

What about the refusal of a Military ID? or passport?

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 3/21/10 8:37am
Msg #328242

In AZ....

1. Tribal ID is acceptable if it contains the necessary elements.
2. Ditto for military ID.
3. Passports are only acceptable ID in real estate conveyances.

What federal law are you referring to? There are many things that are left for the states to decide. Not all marriages are legal in every state. If so, then gay marriages would be legal in all 50 states.

Reply by Mary Ellen Elmore on 3/21/10 4:21pm
Msg #328278

Re: In AZ....

As far as gay marriages, I think if someone ever really challenged some of these State laws such as the one in TN stating they will not honor or recognize one, it would be won on the Supreme Court level--it will happen one day.

Since when is a passport only a valid ID in RE transactions?

I'll have to do some research to get the exact law so I state the correct title, section, paragraph, etc. etc.

I do know my SOS office has told me that Military ID, Tribal ID and Passports are acceptable ID for all notarizations.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 3/21/10 6:02pm
Msg #328294

You have to remember that all states are different.

See page 15 of the AZ handbook. It says (near the bottom):

"Exception to the ID Rule"
"For the purposes of a real estate conveyance or financing only, a valid unexpired passport that is issued by the United States government or any other national government is acceptable.

However, to be acceptable, an ID must contain a photo, signature and written physical description (height, weight, hair color and eye color).

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 3/21/10 6:03pm
Msg #328295

You have to remember that all states are different.

See page 15 of the AZ handbook. It says (near the bottom):

"Exception to the ID Rule"
"For the purposes of a real estate conveyance or financing only, a valid unexpired passport that is issued by the United States government or any other national government is acceptable.

However, to be acceptable, an ID must contain a photo, signature and written physical description (height, weight, hair color and eye color).

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/21/10 4:43pm
Msg #328281

a gun to their head ( but than that would get us in roubles)

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 3/21/10 1:46pm
Msg #328267

At the risk of initiating a firestorm, I would like to see

the US of A move toward issuing a standardized national ID to all citizens and
LEGAL permanent residents.
I know that it raises images of old WW II movies (YOUR PAPERS!!!!), but I believe that
it woud be of great benefit.
It would have a photograph, signature. and description, imbedded biometric info.
Would be good for document ID, boarding aircraft, employment voting (citizens only , of course) , medical care, banking , etc. etc.
I realize that it raises some privacy and freedom concers, but IMO the benefits would
far outweigh the problems.
Lot of issues would have to be addessed, (renewal, cancellation at death, positive ID at
issuance, security of info etc. etc, )

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/21/10 2:08pm
Msg #328268

Fire gear on...flack jacket fastened.

Why not just chip us like we do our dogs? That would keep cards from expiring...keep costs down.

You could have the same info on your card in your wallet for merchants, etc., and if you lost it, you could just go get your chip scanned and get a new card at the card getting place (because they would have a scanner there).

I understand what you are saying...it would be nice for notaries, and all. But, even though I'm a straight arrow who doesn't cheat on her notary taxes, AND who pays SE tax even though she doesn't have to...I just don't care much for your idea.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 3/21/10 8:01pm
Msg #328313

Re: Fire gear on...flack jacket fastened.

Must be that Texas independence in you....

I agree with Bob - there should be a national ID card. We've been one step away from it for years with our SSN, which was never supposed to be used for ID. What's wrong with a having a national ID card? Or failing that, requiring every citizen to have a passport? It would solve SO many problems with ID and eliminate this patchwork of state ID requirements we have now - every state would be on the same page. I don't think it's a privacy issue at all - we currently submit to whatever laws our individual states have, so why not simplify things and have everyone handle it the same way?

The only other thing I would want to see in a national ID is that the ID expires when you expire... The idea that you are no longer who you used to be simply because the document identifying you is out of date seems like something out of Kafka or Orwell...

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/21/10 8:50pm
Msg #328322

Re: Fire gear on...flack jacket fastened.

*It would solve SO many problems with ID and eliminate this patchwork of state ID requirements we have now - every state would be on the same page. *

It's a non-issue to me (as a notary) what other states need or want since I'm only commissioned in Texas. Maybe I'm being short-sighted. Why do notaries across the US need to be on the same page?

About the Kafka or Orwellian thing: I'm happy to be able offer a degree of entertainment value to my buddies with my opinions!

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/21/10 3:41pm
Msg #328276

I agree ... a national ID card would be a good thing

Other countries have it. IMO, driver's licenses should be for DRIVING, just like fishing licenses are only for fishing. Since the federal government wants to play such a big role in dictating identification requirements, maybe the federal government should be responsible for standardized identification for government purposes. I actually did a research paper on that issue in high school.

Granted, I have one of the new U.S. passport cards, and it is very cool looking... in fact, so cool looking that most people would think it was fake if I tried to use it as my everyday ID card. Maybe once they start circulating more they could become a "de facto" national ID.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/21/10 5:15pm
Msg #328286

About your passport card...

I wonder, Robert, if you can get those post passport issuance, or do you have to reapply to get one? They would be handy to have if you travel a lot. As cruisers know, passports can be PITAs to carry around. I guess I could read up on it, but if you have one, maybe you know the answer off the top of your head.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/21/10 5:52pm
Msg #328291

Re: About your passport card...

You have to apply for the passport card:
From the government website:

"The U.S. Passport Card has the same period of validity as the U.S. Passport Book: 10 years for an adult and 5 years for minors under age 16. The card costs $45 for a first-time adult passport applicant and $35 for all minor applicants under age 16, regardless of whether they are previous passport book or card holders. Adults who already have a fully valid passport book may apply for the card as a passport renewal by mail for a cost of only $20."

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/21/10 5:53pm
Msg #328292

Thanks Sylvia. I'm going to get one. n/m

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/21/10 6:33pm
Msg #328302

Re: Thanks Sylvia. I'm going to get one.

Brenda:
http://travel.state.gov/passport/forms/ds82/ds82_843.html

Go to this page then scroll down to the link where you can fill out the app online (I downloaded it to my desk top and filled it in, then printed it out) or you can download the blank form. You use the same form as when you renew a passport. Just check the passport card box when filling in the form.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/21/10 6:54pm
Msg #328305

Re: Thanks Sylvia. I'm going to get one.

If you are *renewing* an expired passport book by mail, you can get a card and book at the same time. If you are saying that you already have a current valid passport book, you can get a card also by applying in person. You can't get a passport by mail unless you submit your original passport book, which I did not want to do.

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/21/10 6:53pm
Msg #328304

Re: About your passport card...

Yes; I already had my passport book when I went to apply for a passport card... just took my birth certificate, social security card and driver license. The application form has a space to indicate current passport number if you have one already, but you don't have to submit the original passport with the application.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/21/10 4:04pm
Msg #328277

Re: At the risk of initiating a firestorm, I would like to see

Many countries in Europe use the system and it is not bad at all!
Matter fact thanks to the system they do not need a Census every ten years as they keep track.
Is it an invasion to privacy? Well some will debate it is but I do not feel it is (perhaps because I grew up under that system).

Reply by Mary Ellen Elmore on 3/21/10 4:22pm
Msg #328279

Re: At the risk of initiating a firestorm, I would like to see

I see many pros and many cons to that.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/21/10 4:50pm
Msg #328282

Re: At the risk of initiating a firestorm, I would like to see

What would the cons be in your oipnion? (just a question)

In many countries in Europe you have your ID card that needs to be acquired by age 12 in some countries and 14 in others and you acquire it at the City Hall of the city or village where you live. If you move to another city or village you just need to go to the City Hall of your new place and register that you live there and basta that's it!
Would anyone steal it there is not much they can do with it.
It has the great benefits that they can keep track of population, migration and iniigration and also illegals get tagged much easier. When my husband moved to Belgium he had to go to City Hall but did not get an ID Card, instead he got a work permit to be used together with his passport as passports are considered to be a legal valid proof of ID however the work permit is required in order to prove that you can establish residence in the Country.
Than you have your driver's license but that is another ballgame and does not need to be changed or renewd when you move (unless you move out of the Country, I left when it was still the 10 now it is the EU so on those rules I do not know)

Here in the US with that system it would already prevent the high cost of the Census and would bring in revenue as the ID cards are not for free.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/21/10 5:07pm
Msg #328283

Re: At the risk of initiating a firestorm, I would like to see

Con:

I'm no rocket scientist but I do know that the government (local, state or federal) cannot be trusted yet to secure such information. There are breaches all the time to personal information. Until the technology is secure (and will it ever be?), there should never be a database with everyone's information collected including biometric identification to become a constant target. An ID card with total identifiers and biometric information should not be collected until the keepers (obviously the government) get their act together to be responsible for such. Technology is a wonderful thing, but it's also just a code. Codes can be broken.

The sum total of a person could be erased by error or intent if such a collection of information was not done with a great deal of forethought and consideration.

Privacy is an issue. Once such a succinct collection of bits and bytes identifies an individual, that individual's entire life can be tracked to a single identifier for any peering entity to look at. Do you really think that all who are involved in the data keeping will be honest? No way. Notaries cannot even help but to peer at the loan apps to see how much people make. You see it mentioned here too often about how much a borrower makes.

I am not afraid of big brother looking at me, but big brother needs to mature properly to be able to manage that kind of data about people.

This will ultimately become the way of things. But, I'd like to forestall the government's ownership of that kind of power over my information for as long as possible.

There are plenty who will see this as the way to fix immigration. I see it as just another way for someone to be paid to sell a poor immigrant a card for this country.

JMHO

Reply by Robert/FL on 3/21/10 6:56pm
Msg #328306

Re: At the risk of initiating a firestorm, I would like to see

That is the one con to the real ID act... I don't like the idea of the DMV having a state-wide database with SCANNED IMAGES of birth certificates and other documents submitted to verify identity. Any corrupt employee of the DMV could sell copies of these documents or who knows what else. I think that documents should be verified at the time they are presented but they should NOT be scanned and stored into a database.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/22/10 3:44am
Msg #328334

Re: At the risk of initiating a firestorm, I would like to see

Just genuinely curious... What info do those ID cards have that tie them to the person? For example, does it include a physical description? Signature? Address?

And what is it used for? If there isn't much that someone who steals it could do with it (e.g. steal someone's identity?) then I'm wondering what's the point in having it to begin with. But if it has lots of personal info on it, I suspect there is plenty someone else could do with it, just like stealing someone's social security number here.