Posted by NJW/FL on 3/9/10 12:47pm
Msg #326074

Signing agency question

I was asked to conduct a signing today for a purchase and my fee was met for a typical purchase with under 150 pgs. and only two docs to fax back. When I rec'd the loan pkg it was 192 pgs.! I called signing agency and asked for my addt'l fee. She would only up my fee by half of my request as she was only making $25. for the signing that way. Is this for real???? I turned it down as I told her that I would end up there a lot longer, etc. etc. and that I also have to make enough to cover my time and expenses. This is a company that pays on time and is fine to work for. I am just wondering how profitable it is for her to only earn that little amount.

Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 3/9/10 12:55pm
Msg #326076

It may have been a good client for her, sometimes we have to bite the bullet and help out.
Every once in a while I end up working for nothing cause most of my clients treat me well more often then not. It catches up in the long run. If this was a regular client for you I wouldn't have backed out of the commitment.

Reply by NJW/FL on 3/9/10 1:09pm
Msg #326079

This would only be the third signing I have done for her. I had really agreed to my fee for local and it was out of my mileage area to begin with "to help her out". I neglected to mention that in my post because my real question is do they really only make that much on signings?
I agree with you wholeheartedly on helping out as it does catch up in the long run. Just don't know how long I would end up being there and the travel time to get back in time for other appt. An extra 50 plus pages can take a long time at a purchase with the realtor there.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/9/10 1:12pm
Msg #326081

"because my real question is do they really only make that much on signings"

Depends on the signing service - when you see signing services only paying around $50 per signing, then you know they are making beaucoup dollars themselves.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/9/10 1:29pm
Msg #326088

I've had quite a few SS tell me that they are only making $25 on the deal.

One time I quoted my minimum fee and the SS told me that would only leave him with $10 profit. My fees are reasonable - the problem is that most SS are charging the TC the same fees that we notaries charge when we're hired directly by the TC, so there's no way the SS can pay the notary anything decent. That's why I'm taking classes to get into another line of work - loan signing fees just keep going lower and lower and at that point why bother doing loan signings just to break even on expenses?

I still have a few clients that value me as an individual and are willing to pay for MY services - not for just any notary with a pulse - because they know they will get a competent notary who will get the job done right.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/9/10 1:10pm
Msg #326080

Some of the loans with one title company that I am a signing service for turn out to be e-docs (hard as it is to believe these days, 99% of the loans I get are overnight docs), sometimes the title officer tells me that the particular company on a loan won't give her extra for e-mailed docs, so in those rare instances I "eat" the e-doc fee I pay the signing agent.
In some cases, if the signing agent I think is best for a signing is a little further away from the borrowers than I like (I like to keep my signing agents within 10 miles from a signing), and I figure the signing agent fee should be more than I could pay and make a small profit, then I let the signing agent work directly with the title company - getting the best agent for the signing is the top priority.

This also works well for me, because sometimes the title company will call the agent later for a signing and the agent tells them that they prefer to work through me - I have loyal signing agents.

Reply by NJW/FL on 3/9/10 1:18pm
Msg #326083

That info gives me a better idea on how it works for an agency. You obviously run a professional, quality business which we know is not always the norm. I still have to watch my bottom line and my schedule and this signing was almost 20 miles away. I had already agreed to keep it at my local fee when I first accepted the assignment. I also needed to be back locally and it would have taken me longer as we know purchases at the realtor's office can run a bit long especially with an extra 50 plus pages. I thank you for your input.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/9/10 1:24pm
Msg #326086

It seems we are encountering more of this kind of thing lately. If the ss is bidding work at lower fees in order to get work, that's their business. If they're bidding so slow that I'm expected to "eat" the costs, that's my business. For that very reason, I don't take $75 signings. The ss might be making a marginal profit, but I have equipment to buy & maintain (printers seem to always be an issue to maintain). I have to decide for myself if I can make a profit, based on what they're willing to pay. I don't buy the "but we're only making xxxx on this signing". It's not my problem. We all know they make a profit. I have to look out for myself.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/9/10 1:38pm
Msg #326090

Yup, we are constantly being asked to "eat" expenses and "help us out on this one". I've already lowered my fees 20-30% from what I was getting all day long just two years ago. I recently had a new SS call me and ask me to quote my "lowest wholesale price" for the plethora of business that he could send my way. Of course he could not make any guarantees, except that I would be the first he would call if he had something in my area. I quoted my normal minimum fee and he kept dialing.

Reply by JulieD/KS on 3/10/10 11:16am
Msg #326258

I agree, MW/VA

If they underbid a job and then whine to me that they are only making $xx on the job, that just tells me they are poor business people and probably don't have working capital to pay me anyway! Companies that are my staple companies, I will go above and beyond for. Others....not so much.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 3/9/10 1:51pm
Msg #326091

I debated if I should post this, or not , and hope that

it does not come off as harsher than intented, but I totally disagree wtih
your approach.
You stated that this is a good co and pays fairly and promptly. It is also, a company
that will will, in all liklehood, never hear from again.
You accepted the job, recd dox, and probably, confirmed with buyer.
You turn the job back because you are a few bucks apart on an additonal fee fee for 42 additional pages.
Don't know if you looked at pkg, but additonal dox might have been disclousue or condo type dox.
You later say that you needed more $$ because you might be rushed or lated for next appointment because of more dox. So it's ok to be late if you get extra $ ??
You may well not fill that time slot, so in lieu of $xxx , you will get $0 and eat the time that
you have previously invested.
It is tough enough to get work from good companies these days. I do not see the point in
blowing one off becuae a few incremental bucks, for a indeterminate, possibly insignifican
expenditure of additonal time.
Again, do not take this personally. It just bugs me to see good, professioanl NSA, potenially
shooting themselves in the foot over insignificant issues. Some signings take a few minutes longer, and some go like lightening. It all seems to even out.
Have a great day, and again , I apologize if this seemed harsh.

Reply by Roger_OH on 3/9/10 2:21pm
Msg #326093

Good points, Bob...

If it's a good company that you have a relationship with, I certainly agree that they are worth going the extra mile for; I certainly would not have given it back over some additional pages, especially after confirming. You have to consider the larger picture, not just one assignment.

To use a phrase popular in Bob's youth, "Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater", or as later known, "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face".

Reply by NJW/FL on 3/9/10 2:55pm
Msg #326097

Re: Good points, Bob...

I hadn't confirmed with the buyer's agent yet as the docs were e mailed along with my confirmation from the SS. I have only had two other signings with her and was paid on time but she is new to me and am not sure that will stay that way. I do have my regulars that provide more regular work and definitely work with them because of the volume of business over the past five plus years. So, I do agree with you and Bob on that idea. Also, one of my posts mentioned 50 plus pages, which should have been 40 plus pages.

Reply by Grammyzoom on 3/9/10 3:04pm
Msg #326098

Going the extra 240 miles........

When we have a good relationship with a signing service I am willing to bend to keep their business. We will take that last minute signing, go a further distance or take a little less if possible. It is those relationships that will sustain you in the slow times.

We had a signing a few years ago with a couple who were leaving to go on vacation the next morning. We received a call from the SS that next afternoon. The title company said that the Grant Deed was missing, that we failed to have it signed. Astounded I double checked the documents which were still in my computer. No GD! I had the SS check their copies. No GD!

The title company was a good customer of theirs and was unwilling to pay us to go back out. I could easily have gotten righteous and refused but we wanted to do whatever it took to make our client look good. It turns out the people were 120 miles away at a lake. So, we put some gas in the car and took a lovely ride out to the lake, got the deed signed, and sent it to the title company. The signing service has been a true and loyal customer of ours for years since and that little trip we took was well worth the time and gas spent.

Reply by NJW/FL on 3/9/10 3:23pm
Msg #326100

Re: Going the extra 240 miles........

I appreciate all of the comments on whether or not I should have turned back the signing, but my question was in regards to how the signing agencies make any money when they are only getting so little extra themselves.
I have already posted to others responses regarding turning it back. I am very careful about doing that, and had my reasons that I stand by. She is not a regular for me and is still too recent to have me 'go the extra...." I do agree with you on that for my loyal title companies and signing agencies. I have a number of stories myself in regards to helping them out in many ways. They appreciate my work and I sure do appreciate them!!!
Thank you for participating.

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 3/9/10 5:29pm
Msg #326122

Re: Going the extra 240 miles........

Just for the record, I am doing one tomorrow that the SS is only making $15.00 on! Now I'm sure that that is not the case in all of the dealings that they do, but they were up front with me (I even have a copy of their confirmation) and the fee wasn't too low, I'm doing it. But yes, sometimes $25 is ALL that they make. Everyone has to run their own business as it works for them. Oh, and this company pays VERY promptly!

As for turning it in for the extra 42 pages, my experience has been that after the settlement statement is done and any title docs that need their signature, the seller and agent can leave (actually I like them to leave), then go onto the rest of the docs are almost identifical to refi's (at least here in MI). Generally the extra pages are copies of broker docs which you've already come across in the lenders package. If they are duplicate, I just say something like, this is another copy of the 1003, etc that we've already signed. It doesn't take any longer than it takes for them to sign their name. Just my $.02.

Reply by JulieD/KS on 3/10/10 12:05pm
Msg #326273

Re: Going the extra 240 miles........

I've gone the extra mile quite often...and for companies that had never called me before...and who have never called since. It really just depends on the circumstances.

Reply by JulieD/KS on 3/10/10 12:05pm
Msg #326274

Re: Going the extra 240 miles........

I've gone the extra mile quite often...and for companies that had never called me before...and who have never called since. It really just depends on the circumstances.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/10/10 12:20pm
Msg #326277

Re: Going the extra 240 miles........

I can understand fostering good relationships...but I'm running a business...and there's no way I can make a business decision to drive 240 miles to correct someone else's mistake without compensation. And even if it were my mistake, I don't think I'd drive 240 miles to make a correction - that's just silly - and good clients will see the folly in that. My suggestion would be to agree with my client on a fee for having this single doc signed then have them find a notary closer to the signers (or even help them in that endeavor) and deduct that fee from my signing fee.

MHO

Reply by NJW/FL on 3/9/10 2:43pm
Msg #326095

Re: I debated if I should post this, or not , and hope that

Bob I do not think your post is harsh. It is your opinion and I did have my reasons. In my other posts after my original, I mentioned that I had already given her my local fee to help her outand it was not local. I did go through the docs before I turned it back. I had only done two other signings as she just started using my services in the past two months so I can assume she would stay a timely payer, but don't know that for sure either. I just did not go into all the other little details in my post because I just wanted to know about the way the signing agencies pricing worked, not whether or not I made the right decision. Very rarely have I ever turned back a signing without first thinking it through and I do not find it easy to do.
I appreciate your input and I am not in the least upset by your post. No apology necessary.
Thank you !

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/9/10 4:46pm
Msg #326116

Re: I debated if I should post this, or not , and hope that

I think most of us understand the fine line we must walk as far as going the extra mile for a good client - I'm sure we've all done that from time to time, I know I certainly have. I'm betting that NJW/FL took that into consideration and it was said that a fee concession had already been made for this client. I've seen many posts on here about people calling to get a fee increase due to the unexpectedly large size of the package - this one was nearly 200 pages for a single copy!

Reply by MW/VA on 3/9/10 6:32pm
Msg #326136

You have made some very good points on this, Bob. While

we're on the subject, there's a post over in Leisure by SueW/Tn (#11272).
It has a lot to say about going the extra mile.

Reply by Notarysigner on 3/9/10 2:27pm
Msg #326094

Very interesting topic/discussion so far. As for me, my fee is based on my original fee that I start out with. I work with X number of SS and their fees are all different. I will go any where they want me to go for the same fee.

It all works out in the long run. 2 miles or 30 miles, 81 pages or 180 pages. Why? Because for me it is who I'm working for, their payment habit and the mutual respect afforded by working together to get the job done.

Efficient SS make a profit, badly managed ones turn to low balling and/or no/ late payments. I am not concerned if a profit is made by the SS. I see how much they are being paid but I don't know or care what their overhead is for example..it's a business.

Reply by SOCAL/CA on 3/9/10 3:25pm
Msg #326101

Notarysigner is right. Set your fee high enough so the size of the package dosen't matter.
If SS/title pays fairly and in a timely manner, going a few extra miles is not all that.

Reply by Lita on 3/9/10 3:36pm
Msg #326108

I'm happy to see this topic turn to fees, because I always wonder if a notary sets their fee on pkg size, possible more docs to notarize, type of loan, distance/time/mileage etc. I have to agree with SOCal/CA, I'm in CA as well. I can't be sure of anything except my average time, distance and mileage, so I have ball park fees based on those areas and who is offering the job to me (mort, escrow/title or signing co's) . If it turns out to be a longer signing oh well I remind myself there have been times when it's been in my favor or a fair paying job.

Reply by bagger on 3/9/10 3:37pm
Msg #326109

Great answer Notarysigner. This is a business, and sometimes the business relationship is more about the long run than making your profit margin on an individual deal.
I have been in sales most of my life, and I would cut my profit margin on an individual deal in order to get more business in the future.
That being said though, I will NOT lose on any given transaction. Cutting your pricing below your expenses never makes sense, all it does is set a precedent.
There are customer that you just do not want to do business with.

Reply by SpinClose/MI on 3/10/10 9:57am
Msg #326223

Re: Signing agency question regarding fees

Just like the "loss leader" at the drug store, exp: gal milk for $1.99, where the drug store hopes to make a profit from additional purchases and history shows they usually will, a SS will often times make little or no profit to further business. And at least in my case this provides greater volume and more potential business and profit in the future. Title companies have lowered everyone's fees inculding the SS's. Those that will "help me out" will benefit from future work. Those that can't be flexable with fees will be left out.
I have met many building contractors that are buying
REO's partly to keep some of their employees working in hopes that they won't lose some of the best works they have when they may need them as things improve. This builds loyalty and is a good business practice for anyone who can look ahead, not just see today.
My daughter who got me into this business, worked at a national title company for more than a dozen years, taught me to "learn to be flexable". This has worked well for me.

Reply by John Schenk on 3/9/10 9:17pm
Msg #326167

Mine can be 2 blocks, and I actually walked to a signing one time LOL, or it can be 120 miles. I have no flat rate for out of town closings, and won't do them without being paid for the mileage and time involved. It may take some of you folks as long to go 30 miles as it does for me to go 120 miles at times, but I'm not putting 240 miles, round trip, on my vehicle for the same rate as I would 60 miles. I DO, however, at times not charge for a page count over 120 pages, but that solely depends upon the customer. If they don't call me regularly and I haven't done many closings for them, there's going to be a higher print fee.

I think it's a bit relative to where you are, and what your competition is doing. Your fees have to be in line with your competition or you only get closings that they just can't get anyone else to do, and you'll starve. I'm not talking about meeting the lowballers fees, that I'd never even consider anyway. I don't think there's any real line that can be drawn in the sand to say this is right or that is right. It simply comes down to where you are, and what your competition will do for a good paying client that you want to keep a long relationship with that also does a considerable amount of closings. I lose closings often because I'm simply not willing to meet the price they offer, as we all do. That's a business choice, and an easy one to make for me. I believe she said this was the 3rd loan closing from this company thrown her way in a relatively short period of time. That's a little different situation than someone out of the blue just calling you up and wanting you to do it for a less than optimal fee. For a good client, I let some things slide, but I don't let 180 pages slide or lengthy drives over about 25 miles. We'll be paying $3.00 a gallon before long as summer nears. I don't drive a motorcycle to closings, so that cost is getting passed along.

JJ