Posted by Jim/AL on 3/16/10 9:38am
Msg #327489

Using signature stamp to sign loan docs.

I recently had a closing and the man was handicapped and could not even make a mark. He had his secretary stamp his sig and write in his initials. I told him I was not sure it would fly.

I called ABC and they said no way he would have to sign in front of an attorney, so then I called ASN and they said if the lender approved it was okay as long as he understood what was being signed yada, yada.

Lender approved and I just had to include a letter explaining why he used a stamp.

Weird, any others ever do this?

Reply by BossLadyMD on 3/16/10 9:47am
Msg #327491

never had this happen..but who actually wrote the letter explaining why he used a stamp? if borrower's secretary wrote letter or he produced one from his attorney fine, but i would have not wrote it because he would have had to give me some medical documentation, etc..sounds like a big hassle. hope they are paying u well

Reply by Jim/AL on 3/16/10 9:51am
Msg #327492

Pay was tiny...JMT.

I am not a doctor, but he could not even move his fingers for thumbprint, he was in wheelchair all strapped down.

Reply by Grammyzoom on 3/16/10 10:05am
Msg #327495

I have had a couple of people who are quadriplegics. unable to use their hands. We placed a pen in their mouths and they signed with an attempt at their names.

We see one of these gentlemen about once every year, he has severe cerebral palsey, and the other was injured while doing a practice jump in the military. He signed loan docs and the lender had no problem accepting the "signature".

Reply by BossLadyMD on 3/16/10 10:11am
Msg #327496

i had this elderly guy - who fought in World War II - and his signature was sloppy at best, but he was still able to sign. it made for a very long appointment. maryland requires a POT for this unable to sign.

Reply by Luckydog on 3/16/10 4:49pm
Msg #327565

Wow! I did a blind man signing once, and a guy with a broken wrist. I think he should have had a POA for this one.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/16/10 9:57am
Msg #327493

Is a stamped signature acceptable to your SOS?

I think THAT'S the more pressing question...is the stamp considered a valid signature? Or maybe it might be considered a "Signature by Mark" (by someone else..??..)...

IMO this man should have had a POA in place specifically for this type of situation. Regardless, does your state allow for a "Signature by Direction?" Florida does, though I've never done it (§117.05(14)(b)(d)) This would probably have to be also approved by the lender, but he'd have been able to direct you to sign for him, you follow all notary protocol and you do notarize.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 3/16/10 10:04am
Msg #327494

Same question as Linda ...

I don't think a stamped 'signature' qualifies as a "signature by mark" since it wasn't done with his own hand. Signature stamps are disallowed by some states, with regard to notarizations ...not a clue about Alabama, though.

Reply by Jim/AL on 3/16/10 10:26am
Msg #327501

Re: Same question as Linda ...

I did not think it would fly. ASN said that AL notary law is so vague (understatement) that they could not find anything stating it was not allowed. According to JMT this was not the first one that has closed that way.

Not sure why him or secretary would write a letter, it made sense for me to explain briefly in a letter.

Obviously not ideal situation, but I think it will probably record and fly.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/16/10 10:33am
Msg #327502

Jim...I'm curious

I can understand why you made calls to get the answers but why wasn't one of those calls to your SOS for a more definitive answer? If the signing was at night the call could have been placed first thing in the morning so you'd know in advance of shipping whether or not you have a problem.

"Obviously not ideal situation, but I think it will probably record and fly."....I'm not so sure...IME recordable docs normally must contain original signatures - not so sure a stamp would qualify no matter what the circucmstances. And if your notary laws prohibit you from notarizing a signature stamp then the notarization is in question. Heck, think about it - you don't even know if that signature stamp is really his signature!!


My paranoia is showing...I know...

Reply by BobbiCT on 3/16/10 10:46am
Msg #327505

Not in CT, question to to SOTS ..

At least here in CT, the legal question regarding validity of documents signed this way would probably not be answered by two attorneys in the Secy of State's office (outside the notarization block area of law).

I've seen this issue in CT before. The question has been answered and addressed by:
Estate Planning/Probate Attorney when dealing with these types of documents.
Real estate attorney or title insurance company attorney in CT office when dealing with deeds, mortgages, and Promissory Notes secured by same.

FYI in CT from the past 3 I was involved with: The rubber stamp didn't cut it. Neither did someone else forcing the disabled individual's hand with a pen in it to create a signature.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/16/10 10:51am
Msg #327507

Not questioning validity of docs Bobbi

Maybe my post wasn't so clear....I'm suggesting OP should be questioning the SOS as to whether he can notarize a signature by stamp....

As to vallidity of doc that's not our call to make....OP said he thought doc would record - I'm wondering if a document signed with a stamped signature will be recordable. Not sure, but certainly not a question to be addressed to the SOS.

Reply by PAW on 3/16/10 11:24am
Msg #327512

Re: Not questioning validity of docs Bobbi

I don't think the SOS would state an opinion one way or the other. Since this pertains to what constitutes a persons "legal" signature, it would be a matter of law. Therefore, this question should be posed to the State Attorney General for a legal opinion. Florida already has a legal opinion on record, as well as numerous court cases where the ruling was that a facsimile stamp would be acceptable in certain circumstances. (See my other post in this thread.)

Reply by PAW on 3/16/10 11:16am
Msg #327510

I had a similar situation awhile back. One of the signers was a quadriplegic and used a 'facsimile stamp' (aka rubber stamp of his signature). His spouse signed in the normal manner. The lender and title company were well aware of the situation at the onset. And, given that the Florida Secretary of State had already said that facsimile stamps may be used as an official signature in certain circumstances. So we went ahead with the signing with Mr. Borrower using the stamp and Mrs. Borrower signing in the normal fashion. Lo and behold, the lender's underwriter wasn't to thrilled with the idea and asked that the closing be re-done. They did allow Mr. Borrower to use the stamp, but two witnesses from the local (50 miles away) title company had to be present to watch the signing. Even though Florida has two alternative methods, sign by mark and authorizing the notary (or other individual) to sign for them, both requiring the principal to the transaction to be present (authorizing someone else to sign for them) and two disinterested witnesses, not counting the notary, to also sign the documents. The lender didn't require us to use either of the two alternate methods, but had an affidavit that needed to be signed by the witnesses and their signatures notarized.

The Florida Attorney General issued to the following in Advisory Legal Opinion AGO 84-43:

In the absence of a statute prescribing the method of affixing a signature, it may be affixed in many different ways. It may be written by hand, and, generally, in the absence of a statute otherwise providing, it may be printed, stamped, typewritten, engraved, photographed, or cut from one instrument and attached to another. A signature lithographed on an instrument by a party may be sufficient for the purpose of signing it, and it has been held or recognized that it is immaterial with what kind of an instrument a signature is made. Facsimile signature of a person may be a genuine signature.

And a court ruling cited: "If a facsimile or rubber stamp signature is affixed to document by someone other than person whose signature it purports to be, the only prerequisite to its validity is that it must be so affixed upon authority or direction of that person and also in his presence." (STATE of Florida, Appellant, v. Evelyn F. HICKMAN, Appellee) The ruling

Reply by jba/fl on 3/16/10 11:30am
Msg #327514

Thanks Paul - nice to know this ruling.

I jotted it down in my manual in case it ever comes up I have a ready reference.

Reply by PAW on 3/16/10 11:32am
Msg #327515

Clarification provided by the FL Notary Education ...

... Coordinator:

Educational Newsletter (Linda Adams, Notary Education Coordinator) - May 1999

NOTARIZING A SIGNATURE MADE BY A FACSIMILE SIGNATURE STAMP

Can a person requesting a notarization sign the document using a rubber stamp bearing his signature? YES. The law is very broad when it comes to the definition of a signature. Almost any mark or method is allowed as long as the signer declares that to be his/her authorized signature. For example, a legal signature may be made by a mark, a rubber stamp, or another person who is directed by the signer to sign his/her name.
When notarizing in these circumstances, you should take every precaution to protect the integrity of the document, the signer, and yourself. The signer must physically appear before you to take the oath or make the acknowledgment, produce adequate identification, and "sign" the document in your presence. As the Notary, you must ensure the signer's willingness and mental capacity to execute the document, perform the notarial act, and complete the notarial certificate. We also recommend that two unbiased witnesses be present for the signing of the document and that you alter the notarial certificate language to reflect the special circumstances of the signing. Additionally, if you keep a journal or recordbook of notarial acts, you should make notes about this unusual notarization.
Florida law now provides specific instructions for notarizing for a person who signs by mark or for a person with a disability who directs the Notary or another person to sign for him/her. The Governor's Notary Section has printed instructions for notarizing in these situations. We can fax or mail these instructions to you if you will e-mail your request and include your name and fax number or address.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/16/10 11:37am
Msg #327516

Pathetic..."May 1999"

Another subject for another thread but you'd think with fraud rampant today they'd think about revisiting this - this opinion is 11 years old for Pete's sake!!

Reply by BossLadyMD on 3/16/10 4:00pm
Msg #327556

As with all case law, it uses 'ideal' situations...go figure

"We also recommend that two unbiased witnesses be present for the signing of the document and that you alter the notarial certificate language to reflect the special circumstances of the signing"

Thanks for the research. As with all case law, it uses 'ideal' situations...go figure...