Posted by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 3/3/10 1:56pm
Msg #325117

experienced loan closers in KY...

if you consider yourself an experienced professional would it suffice to say that with your "experience" that you would also know your state's requirements for who signs the security instrument?
example...KY requires a non-titled spouse to sign the security instrument. do you rely on the lender to instruct you to have the spouse sign the security instrument or rely on your experience?

Reply by Jim/AL on 3/3/10 2:07pm
Msg #325118

I rely my experience to ask the lender (or hiring party) if they want the wife to sign before I would take it upon myself to make that decision.

AL is also a spousal state, but wife would not always sign for investment property.

Follow instructions is number one.

Reply by Lee/AR on 3/3/10 2:19pm
Msg #325122

Agree with Jim/AL

We aren't the 'deciders'. Experience would make me 'make the phone call to hiring party', then 'follow instructions'. And, in some cases....do the re-sign, too.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/3/10 2:29pm
Msg #325125

agreed follow instructions and place the call.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/3/10 2:26pm
Msg #325124

Not in KY, however I had a discussion on this subject with the Fl Bar Counsel UPL dept a few years ago. If a spouse is not listed on the security instrument, and I haven't had instructions for the non-borrowing spouse sign the security instrument, then it would be UPL for me to advise the non-borrowing spouse to sign it. It is a legal document, and sometimes there are circumstances where the non-borrowing spouse doesn't need to sign the document. It is not our call to make, no matter how experienced we are.

So, a call should be placed to the title company for instructions.

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 3/3/10 5:11pm
Msg #325167

understandable.
let's take your state for example. in fl, a 2nd witness other than the notary is required when executing certain documents, like the mortgage. if you were not specifically instructed to have a 2nd witness sign the mortgage, would you not worry about it or is it your experience with your state's requirements that you know to have a 2nd witness available to sign the mortgage?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/3/10 5:16pm
Msg #325168

No Jessica...FL requires witnesses on deeds of conveyance only - not on mortgages (except in Dixie County, who does require 2 witnesses)...may be a lender specific requirement but not a state requirement.

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 3/3/10 5:19pm
Msg #325169

thank you linda...your experience in this line of work indicates you are well aware of your state's requirements...point somewhat proven...

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/3/10 5:19pm
Msg #325170

Re: experienced loan closers in KY...dangit..did it again

IME if I know of some state-required procedure that's not in the instructions, I'd contact my hiring party to clarify ... but would NOT make that determination on my own...it's not my call.

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 3/3/10 5:21pm
Msg #325171

Re: experienced loan closers in KY...dangit..did it again

a phone call would have been appreciated...what would you have done if you were not able to reach the hiring party to have your question answered? in this case, the rtc must start again...

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/3/10 5:33pm
Msg #325173

Call to the LO? See if they can wake someone up?

I normally don't have this problem - 9 times out of 10 I have an after-hours number...very rarely been hung out to dry...and if it's not already clear in the instructions, I'm annoying as heck before I go to the signing making sure I know who needs to sign where and making sure all parties will be there.

What would I do..hmmm....absent being able to get *anyone* on the phone, maybe have two signature pages signed on the security instrument? One with spouse, one without (or in the case of a reverse, two with, two without) ....then hold the package and reach someone open of next business day and return package with correctly signed security instrument. I don't like to do that but if it saves the loan, the rate, etc etc...I think that's what I'd do.

MHO

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 3/3/10 5:40pm
Msg #325177

Re: linda...will you get your commission in every state AND

travel across the US for me? geeze, i like your out of the box thinking! CYA in the right way...

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 3/3/10 2:37pm
Msg #325129

All states are spousal states - but only 9 are comm property states. It is not up to the notary to have the non bor spouse sign if NO INSTRUCTIONS were given. There are some states that have borrower as married, SOLE & SEP and spouse would not sign any docs. Also, on Reverse mortgages, there is a min age of 62. If spouse did not meet the age requirement, they are deeded off. So it is the lender's responsibility or tltle co's to let the notary who is responsible for signing docs. Why was spouse's name missing from the docs to begin with?

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 3/3/10 5:05pm
Msg #325164

the lender missed it...doesn't surprise me but the closer indicated his was a real estate professional for many years.
the loan was a reverse mortgage and the spouse was actually deeding his interest off because he was not old enough to qualify.
ultimately there was a breakdown in communication.
there are plenty of seasoned closers that would recognize the need for a non-titled spouse to sign the security instrument, even without instructions. for example, in certain states, a witness signs the security instrument in addition to the notary. i'm not saying everyone would just "bring a friend along" but an experienced closer would also remind the signer that someone else will need to be present.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 3/3/10 3:22pm
Msg #325145

I rely on proper instructions and then follow them

explicitly. Everyone knows what happens when one assumes.

Reply by Michael Dooley on 3/3/10 4:27pm
Msg #325158

"if you consider yourself an experienced professional would it suffice to say that with your "experience" that you would also know your state's requirements for who signs the security instrument"

yes.

Reply by PAW on 3/3/10 7:54pm
Msg #325234

Not necessarily ...

Kentucky is not a community property state. It is a "marital property" state. Marital property means all property acquired by either spouse after marriage. Any individually owned property brought into the marriage remains separate and is assigned to the individual spouse in the event of dissolution of the marriage. KRS 403.190(1) Property acquired during the marriage by gift, bequest, devise, or descent; by exchange for separate property; after a legal separation; excluded by agreement of the spouses; or the increase in value of separate property not related to the efforts of the parties is exempted from "marital property". KRS 403.190(2) It is the customary practice to include both spouses in all deeds. (Source: Stewart Underwriting Manual)

However, that being said, and as Sylvia also pointed out, taking it upon one's self to assume that a spouse or any other person not specifically identified in the document, needs to sign any document, may be construed as UPL. Therefore, it behooves the signing agent to strictly follow directions provided. If the signing agent has questions, then the prudent signing agent should contact the hiring agency and/or title company for direction before making any decision in this regard.

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 3/4/10 12:58pm
Msg #325324

Re: Not necessarily ...

i understand the rules for each state vary and can be confusing. KY requries that a non-titled spouse to sign the security instrument but doesn't require marital status. AL requires a non-titled spouse to sign the security instrument and martial status is required. CA doesn't require a non-titled spouse to sign the security instrument as long as the non-titled spouse has properly removed their interest via a deed.
it's my opinion that persons performing loan closings should know this information. its saves many people time and money and the information is easily obtainable. shoot, if anyone needs state-specific information i have it and can email it to you.
knowledge is power, i think everyone can agree on that.
and thank you PAW...your posts are always insightful and welcomed.