Posted by garland/CA on 3/20/10 9:36am
Msg #328163

notarizing a document for an apostille

received a request for a "notarization" that then needs an apostille certificate. This is for a car sale (like a pink slip) in Italy. I was wondering if the signature on the pink slip (if they sign in front of me) is the "document" that is being notarized and to that I attach the loose leaf certificate of their choice, or if they need to write out a statement they sign that will be attached to the document - and the signature on the statement is what I notarize.
Basically to summarize - can a notary certificate be attached to a "pink slip" as the document? This will then be mailed to SOS for the apostille (they will do that).

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 3/20/10 9:53am
Msg #328165

Some states (AZ, e.g.) require notarization of a car title while others (CA, .eg.) don't. Is the car title from Italy? In general, any docuiment that is not recorded can have a notarial certificate attached to it.
Alternatively, you might want to call the consulate to find out what the requirements are.

Reply by PAW on 3/20/10 10:17am
Msg #328172

Should not be a problem. You need to notarize the seller's signature (the one signing the pink slip). This is usually done with an acknowledgment (when the document is a vehicle title). Before sending the document to the CA SOS, the notary public signature must be certified by the county clerk/recorder (on the notary public stamp). Then the document with the acknowledgment and county clerk certification, needs to be sent to the CA SOS where an apostille will be applied. Since Italy is a member of the Hague Convention of 5 October 1961 Abolishing the Requirement of Legalisation for Foreign Public Documents, no further legalization is required.

FYI - Documents being sent to countries that are not a member of the Hague Convention of 5 October 1961 Abolishing the Requirement of Legalisation for Foreign Public Documents, will get a Certification of Notarial Authority from the SOS. Depending on the destination country, further authentication by the US Secretary of State and legalization by the Consulate or Embassy of the destination country may also be required.

Reply by garland/CA on 3/20/10 11:38am
Msg #328179

thanks everyone. I'm doing this today for a friend. His wife is Italian and she is selling a car there. Don't know if she already signed the pink slip. Can they just sent it to the SOS without the certification from the county clerk? I think that is what they were planning to do.

Reply by PAW on 3/20/10 11:57am
Msg #328180

I'm not sure, but I don't think so. Call the SOS and ask. The SOS website (http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/authentication.htm) is not very explicit about what or when documents need to be 'authenticated' by the county clerk.

In many states, county authentication is not necessary. It seems to depend on where notary records are kept. If the county issues and maintains the notary commission, then authentication by the county is usually required prior to submission to the state.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/20/10 12:29pm
Msg #328183

Re: notarizing a document for an apostille/just my 2 cents

but in 1988 when I decided I liked it enough here in the US to stay I sold my car to my sister (back in Belgium) and at the time I did sign the pink slip but also had another doc attached to it ( can't recall which one it was) with the International Apostille ... Belgium wouldn't accept the pink slip without the International Apostille ... Italy being in the EU I would check if they have the same rules by calling the Consulate or Embassy ... but if thre is no Consulate in your area there must be what they call an Honorary Consul ...

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/20/10 12:41pm
Msg #328184

Re: notarizing a document for an apostille/oops forgot

to say that my pink slip was not US originated as my car was back home it was the european equivalent of the us pink slip.

Reply by PAW on 3/20/10 1:01pm
Msg #328186

Re: notarizing a document for an apostille/just my 2 cents

An apostille is only applicable to the document for which it is attached. So, from what I'm reading, the "pink slip" did not have an apostille, but the other document did. I can only assume, from my own experience, that the "other document" was probably the bill of sale (assuming that the pink slip is the title to the vehicle). It doesn't make any difference if Italy in a member of the EU or not. As members of the Hague Convention of 5 October 1961 Abolishing the Requirement of Legalisation for Foreign Public Documents, they will accept the legality of the document if it has been through the apostille process.

Now, whether or not the Italian government will accept only the pink slip as proof of title conveyance and property ownership, that is a different matter. I do know when I processed a vehicle sale for a client (different country, but still a member of the Hague Convention), not only was the signed and notarized title to the vehicle required, but a signed and notarized bill of sale was also required. Two documents, both needing to have the "seller" sign and signature notarized, and each document subsequently had to have an apostille applied.

Reply by cawest/PA on 3/20/10 10:23pm
Msg #328228

Re: notarizing a document for an apostille/just my 2 cents

You are correct ... my transaction was the same just that I had to have the *european version* of the pink slip translated first from French/Dutch (aa all official docs at th time were still bilingual-now with the 2 Federations no clue if they still are), than had to have everything notarized and apostilled and everything went smooth.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/20/10 1:16pm
Msg #328189

It can go directly to the SOS...

In California, it can go to the Clerk, then to a regional SOS offices (LA or San Diego) if you're in a hurry to get it done. That has to be done in person, and can take a day or two if you're traveling.

However, you can mail it directly to the main SOS office in Sacramento and bypass the county clerk if you want. This is because the head SOS office has the notary's original signature on file, the regional offices do not. The regional offices can only authenticate the county authentications.

Does that make sense?


If they aren't in a big hurry, they can just mail it to the SOS... but if they ARE in a hurry, there are lots of notaries and other services that are in LA and San Diego that you can hire to do this for you. It's not cheap... (we're talking hundreds of dollars because of the time involved) but it's how you get it done fast. The cheapest way is to send a $20 check to the SOS and wait several weeks for it to come back.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/20/10 1:27pm
Msg #328191

More...

When I said "several weeks" I meant it... there have been a lot of staff suts in their office, and everything just takes time. Remember this is the same office that is nearly 5-6 months behind on processing commissions for notaries.

But.... again, it's the cheapest way to go.

What they do is send the document, a check for $20 (payable to Secretary of State) and a letter indicating that they need an apostille FOR ITALY (very important...) to:

Notary Public Section
P.O. Box 942877
Sacramento, CA 94277-0001


I would make sure you send it with a tracking number and include a a return envelope with postage already affixed. Seriously... that will speed it up.


Ive done quite a few of these both by mail and in person. It's not difficult at all, but in person is just really time consuming, especially if the notary's signature is from a different county.

However, since you're up north... it might be feasible to just go in person to eh Sacramento SOS's office. They will do it in person over the counter... but it will cost them an extra $6.00. That's better than dealing with it down here in Southern CA, though... it's a real nightmare down here.

Reply by Susan Rindermann on 3/20/10 1:56pm
Msg #328193

Re: It can go directly to the SOS...

thank you everyone. I copied many of the responses and will take them with me when we meet. I wish I could talk to the receiving party (Italy) because the people needing the information don't know much and don't even know what kind of questions to ask. They only know "get it notarized" and they ask a notary to do that. I have a feeling all they have is the "pink slip", which may already be signed. She is selling, or sold, a car in Italy.
We'll see how it goes.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/20/10 5:55pm
Msg #328202

To your original question (which it sounds like you've already figured out), you would only need to attach their written statement if there isn't a signature on the document, hence nothing to notarize. Remember that you're not notarizing the doc, just the signature.

Reply by garland/CA on 3/20/10 6:33pm
Msg #328206

Re:incomplete document?

met with the signer. The document was a transfer of title (her brother in Italy is buying her car, she lives here now). She signed her section and now it gets sent back to Italy. There are, of course, incomplete sections (where he signs, other official areas for their "DMV", etc). I attached a Calif. All-Purpose Acknowledgement after she signed her section. I was wondering about the incomplete areas. We are not supposed to notarize documents with incomplete areas or blanks. Would this constitute such a situation? It's not practical to have those areas all filled in at this point.
I am planning to call the SOS on Monday morning. They have not sent the document and Acknowledgment off yet.
Also I had to identify her by her Italian passport. It did have some type of "Homeland Security" paper in the back. Her CA ID card has her newly married name which isn't the same as her name on the title.
This is a new situation for me. I realize using my notary condition primarily in the realm of mortgage transactions didn't train me one for all kinds of other functions we notaries have. I appreciate the opportunity to learn.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/20/10 6:37pm
Msg #328207

Re: Re:incomplete document?

Sometimes on those kinds of documents, the form has different sections. In those cases, I consider that I am only notarizing the specific section that she signed and that's the "name/title" information that I would include on my Acknowledgment and in my journal. So as long as that part is complete, I wouldn't consider it to be an incomplete document. After all, that is really the only part that she is signing off on, right?

Reply by garland/CA on 3/23/10 9:37am
Msg #328509

pretty surprising...

I called the SOS Monday morning to ask whether incomplete sections on a document (Title of Vehicle Transfer) would be considered notarizing an incomplete document. The person answering the phone said, "just one moment" and then came back on saying "yes, it would be". I pressed a little further stating that the nature of this time of document will have incomplete sections since the buyer and the agency for transfer are in Italy and it has to be sent there after obtaining the apostille, which requires a notarization of signer here in US. She said, "one more moment, please". Came back on and said it would be acceptable.
Just makes me wonder when the agency in charge of notary public commissions, policies, etc doesn't seem to know.