Posted by Robert/FL on 5/19/10 6:56am
Msg #337077

Affidavit with no jurat

I am occasionally faced with affidavits that look like this:

STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH

BEFORE ME, the undersigned authority, on this ______ day of ___________, 20____, personally appeared JOHN SMITH, who produced ____________________ as identification, and who being by me duly sworn deposes and says:

(statements entered here)

__________________________
Affiant

__________________________
Notary Public


From the notary's standpoint, the preamble wording without a jurat is sufficient because it already contains all of the required elements of the certificate set forth in Florida law. However, I am finding some research to indicate that an affidavit with no jurat is invalid. I don't know whether or not that is true - the affidavit does clearly state that the affiant is swearing to the statements before a notary public, but does the lack of the words "Sworn to and subscribed" really invalidate the document?

Also, Florida law requires that our certificates "substantially conform" to the sample certificates provided in F.S. 117. The preamble wording above is not really substantially the same as a jurat, although I suppose it could be argued that, because it contains all of the required elements, that the content is substantially the same.

I'd like to get other Fla. notaries' opinions on this. We have several forms at my office that look like the above and I do not know whether I should continue to use them or insist that we add jurats above the notary's signature.

Reply by PAW on 5/19/10 7:05am
Msg #337078

The affidavit you provided is substantially the same form as that provided in the FL manual. Granted, the "sworn to and subscribed" verbiage is not provided, but the affidavit itself contains the words, "who being by me duly sworn" and obviously if the affiant signs the affidavit, then the affiant has subscribed his/her name.

I submit that I probably have notarized more signatures on affidavits of the type and content you show, than ones that include the "sworn to (or affirmed) and subscribed" phrase after the affiants signature. The forms that I use, if I need to attach a jurat, are identical to the form and syntax shown in the manual.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/19/10 7:36am
Msg #337081

I personally don't like this format - the statements he's swearing to have no place in our certificates....I usually just add a separate jurat at the end of the document (either hand-printed or a loose certificate)...the document would look like this:

STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH

BEFORE ME, the undersigned authority, on this ______ day of ___________, 20____, personally appeared JOHN SMITH, who produced ____________________ as identification, and who being by me duly sworn deposes and says:

(statements entered here)

__________________________
Affiant


STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH

Subscribed and sworn to before me this ____ day of ________ 2010 by
_______________________ who provided _________________________ as
identification.



__________________________
Notary Public


Yes it appears redundant but I like my certificates to stand independent of the statements made so it doesn't appear that I'm certifying the statements made by the Affiant.

As to this..."We have several forms at my office that look like the above and I do not know whether I should continue to use them "....how about just doing what the boss tells you to do.

JMO

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/19/10 8:17am
Msg #337091

"do what the boss tells you to do"

Linda, to be honest I am shocked to hear you say that. Bosses ask notary's to break the laws all the time and my employers know they better not dare ask me to do something illegal with my notary commission.

And I think we *are* in a way certifying the statements made by the affiant. That is why "Affidavits may be taken" by notaries under Florida law, rather than like in California where all they can do is attach a jurat.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/19/10 3:37pm
Msg #337208

LOL...my bosses never asked me to break the law

and I wasn't even hinting that you should do that...all I'm saying is if the certificate is compliant (which in your own post you feel it is) then just use it -

Stop trying to upset the applecart to your way at every turn...

Reply by desktopfull on 5/19/10 11:06am
Msg #337115

"...We have several forms at my office that look like the above and I do not know whether I should continue to use them or insist that we add jurats above the notary's signature....".

You work for a law firm, one would think that the lawyers that own the firm would be the ones to make that decision not you. To my knowledge a notary in FL is not allow to make the decision of whether to use an acknowledgement or jurat, but that it is up to the person presenting the document which they prefer to use.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/19/10 11:19am
Msg #337119

As a legal assistant the attorneys at this firm have delegated the authority to select notarial certificates to me.

Now that I have established this, let's now stick with the original question instead of (once again) trying to accuse me of UPL.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 5/19/10 12:50pm
Msg #337146

They delegated authority to you to choose?

I don't think DTF's wrong.
I don't think they CAN give you authority over the Governor's directives.
Direct from the FL Governor's manual, page 12

<<<If the document you are asked to notarize contains a prepared notarial certificate, look for the key words “acknowledged” or “sworn to” to tell you which notarial act is required.
If there is no notarial certificate on the document, the signer must direct you whether he or she wants to make an acknowledgment or take an oath.

Unless you are an attorney, you are not authorized to advise a person which notarial act is appropriate for the document presented for notarization, and you may not advise the person about the contents of the document.>>>

Reply by bagger on 5/19/10 1:02pm
Msg #337149

Re: They delegated authority to you to choose?

I totally agree with Mistarella and DTF.
Robert is way out of his authority as a notary to decide which form(s) to use.

Reply by PAW on 5/19/10 1:04pm
Msg #337151

Re: They delegated authority to you to choose?

Except that the document states that the signer was "duly sworn". Therefore, the only acceptable notarial act is giving the oath and completing a jurat. Florida Statutes 117.03 states, very clearly, "The notary public may not take an acknowledgment of execution in lieu of an oath if an oath is required."

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/19/10 1:08pm
Msg #337153

Re: They delegated authority to you to choose?

As a legal assistant, whether I am a notary or not I can exercise whatever authority I am delegated by the attorneys unless it is prohibited by law. I was drafting documents and choosing certificates long before I was a notary. Just because I became a notary does not mean I can no longer peform duties I would otherwise be able to perform as a legal assistant.

ANNOUNCEMENT TO ALL MEMBERS:

Enough already. I have stautory authority to prepare legal documents under the supervision of an attorney. I act entierely within my confines as a legal assistant as authorized by section 57.104 of the Florida Statutes. I draft 100% of the affidavits this law firm produces, and for the past two years have also drafted 100% of deeds, mortgages, powers of attorney, and wills. So yes, I do draft legal documents and I select the appropriate notarial certificates for them. I do not do so in my authority as a notary. I do so in my authority as a legal assistant under F.S. 57.104.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 5/19/10 1:50pm
Msg #337163

Then why aren't you asking this question to legal assistants

instead of notaries?
What's your agenda, Robert?


<<<I do not do so in my authority as a notary. I do so in my authority as a legal assistant under F.S. 57.104.>>>

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/19/10 1:56pm
Msg #337166

The original post had nothing to do with selecting

the certificate. I know that affidavits require jurats per F.S. 117.03. My question was, is the affidavit sufficient without the jurat if the preamble contains all of the required elements of F.S 117.05(4).

Reply by MistarellaFL on 5/19/10 2:06pm
Msg #337170

And a legal assistant needs a notary's help HOW?

Don't you know the 9 required elements of a Florida notarization?

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/19/10 2:10pm
Msg #337174

Re: And a legal assistant needs a notary's help HOW?

Are not 85% of the posts on this forum related to the signing agent profession?
And why does one need to know anything about HUDs, I-9s, witness requirements, etc., to be a notary? Those things are not related to the notary profession. They are related to the signing agent profession. Most signing agents happen to be notaries. Likewise, most legal assistants happen to be notaries.

This forum is for professional notaries. Paralegal-notaries are no less professional than a signing agent-notary. Why should only signing agent topics be welcome but not legal assistant topics?

And I know the required 9 elements of a Florida notarization. I was asking for clarification on whether a jurat is required to make an affidavit valid. Obviously you do not know the answer. Therefore, please don't participate in this thread as all you are doing is trying to attack me rather than contributing to the original topic.

Reply by desktopfull on 5/20/10 2:50am
Msg #337267

Re: And a legal assistant needs a notary's help HOW?

"....This forum is for professional notaries. Paralegal-notaries are no less professional than a signing agent-notary. Why should only signing agent topics be welcome but not legal assistant topics? ..."

You really don't understand the difference? As notaries we are prohibited from giving legal advise, as a paralegal or legal assistant you can give legal advise under the authority of an attorney. Please, it would be great if you would quit asking for other notaries to commit UPL on this forum.

Reply by Richard Deutsch on 5/19/10 2:10pm
Msg #337176

Re: And a legal assistant needs a notary's help HOW?

Robert is notorious for doing what he just did.
He asks for opinions, and then argues whit those that respond. This guy is nothing more than a glorified law clerk, and building up his ego and boasting about his self importance.
Robert, stick your hand in a bucket of water.
Now pull it out.
See the hole that you left?
The size of the hole is how important you are to that law firm.
Nuff said, I wish Harry had an ignore button, I for one am finished even reading Robert's claptrap

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/19/10 2:16pm
Msg #337178

How am I arguing with responses?

Misterella did not answer the original question. The only person who did was PAW. I am not arguing with him. Believe it or not I *DO* want to get others opinions to make sure I am doing things right, and I have been proven wrong on this forum. However, I will not sit here and continue to be attacked and accused of UPL when I am doing no such thing.

If you do not like my posts you do not have to read them. I like to lead notary discussions. I have made it very clear that I am not a signing agent and I do skip over most of the signing agent-related topics. If you are not interested in notarial topics then do not read my posts, it is simple as that.

And finally I am not a glorified law clerk. I have a tremendous amount of responsibility and I am very knowledgeable in what I do. I make a better paralegal than most others who have gone through paralegal training. If you think that I'm being egotistical so be it. I do not value the opinions of posters like you. The opinions I value are those which are given by people who are looking at the topic for what it's worth rather than trying to attack me because they do not know the answer.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 5/19/10 6:35pm
Msg #337234

Robert, you give me a headache with your nonsense. n/m

Reply by desktopfull on 5/20/10 2:38am
Msg #337266

Richard I agree we need an ignore button. n/m

Reply by desktopfull on 5/20/10 2:36am
Msg #337265

"From the notary's standpoint, the preamble wording without a jurat is sufficient because it already contains all of the required elements of the certificate set forth in Florida law. However, I am finding some research to indicate that an affidavit with no jurat is invalid. I don't know whether or not that is true - the affidavit does clearly state that the affiant is swearing to the statements before a notary public, but does the lack of the words "Sworn to and subscribed" really invalidate the document?

Also, Florida law requires that our certificates "substantially conform" to the sample certificates provided in F.S. 117. The preamble wording above is not really substantially the same as a jurat, although I suppose it could be argued that, because it contains all of the required elements, that the content is substantially the same.

I'd like to get other Fla. notaries' opinions on this. We have several forms at my office that look like the above and I do not know whether I should continue to use them or insist that we add jurats above the notary's signature."

I did respond to your question, I didn't accuse you of anything.

You state the form meets the FL requirements and then proceed to ask us whether or not we should choose a jurat over the worded acknowledgement that you posted. Again, we are not allowed to choose it is up to the presenter to make the choice. Since you have been given the authority to choose for the law firm that you work for and you seem to be confused as to what to do then I suggest that you consult with one of the attorneys in the firm as to what they would prefer as to asking another notary to give legal advise.

For someone that professes they have so much work to do I also wonder as to whether or not the firm you work for knows how much of the normal work day you spend on this forum questioning their work product instead of submitting your questions to the proper source, which of course should be the lawyers that are the members of the firm. I understand now why more employers are monitoring their employees computer useage on line, perhaps the firm you work for should start doing the same thing.

Quite honestly, you need to get over the persecution complex, I made a valid point to your question and instead of addressing the issue I raised you went into attack mode. Your apparent need for self-glorification and self-importance has gotten old, please seek help for your legal questions from the attorneys in the law firm that you work for not on this forum as we are not allowed to give legal advise.