Posted by Marian_in_CA on 5/7/10 5:28pm
Msg #335473

Agent or not?

Okay, this one is a bit weird. I'm going to be a bit general for privacy reasons relating to the situation, but hopefully it makes sense.

I've been hired by an out of state company to perform a certain set of tasks at a conference. Normally, these tasks do no fall within the duties of being a notary.

However, they've asked that I notarize signatures on documents/contracts pertaining to these tasks.

The thing is, I will have already signed them as their representative. They are asking me to sign the documents as their rep/agent AND notarize the signatures of the individuals/companies signing the documents.

I hope that makes sense.

Now, I've always been an independent notary... never an employee or agent of any one company, so this is new to me. I've been pouring through the handbook and state code.

The best I've got is on page 10 of the handbook that says:

"A notary public would have a direct financial or beneficial interest to a transaction in the following situations (Government Code section 8224):

• If a notary public is named, individually, as a principal to a financial transaction.
• If a notary public is named, individually, as any of the following to a real property
transaction: beneficiary, grantor, grantee, mortgagor, mortgagee, trustor, trustee, vendor,
vendee, lessor, or lessee.

A notary public would not have a direct financial or beneficial interest in a transaction if a notary public is acting in the capacity of an agent, employee, insurer, attorney, escrow, or lender for a person having a direct financial or beneficial interest in the transaction."



Okay, in this situation, it is not really a direct financial transaction....nor is it related to property of any kind. I won't be involved with them at all after the conference, however, my name and signature would be explicitly noted as the individual performing these tasks on behalf of the company.


The best I can compare it to is an I-9 form. It's NOT an I-9... but it's a similar concept. The individual is signing and stating something and the Company (me) is signing and stating something. The company only wants the first signature notarized.


What would you do? (Remember, this is California....)

Oh, and it is a completely legitimate event... no creepy sales thing or anything. Not that it matters much... I just didn't want anyone to think I was selling MLM or time-share stuff.

I'm not really comfortable with this.... but like I said, it's a new one for me. If the handbook says there is no COI if I'm acting as an agent, then what's preventing me from notarizing the signature?

I think I know the answer, but I've got a raging headache and I'm all foggy.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/7/10 5:33pm
Msg #335476

"A notary public would not have a direct financial or beneficial interest in a transaction if a notary public is acting in the capacity of an agent, employee, insurer, attorney, escrow, or lender for a person having a direct financial or beneficial interest in the transaction."

I don't see a problem (but I am not in CA of course), but it says you don't have a direct financial or beneficial interest in the transaction if you are acting in the capacity of agent - which I glean from your post is what you are doing. So I see nothing preventing you from notarizing the signature.

But my motto is always if you feel uncomfortable with something, then don't do it

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/7/10 5:35pm
Msg #335478

Thanks, Sylvia... taht's where I'm kind of stuck. I have zero interest in what they're signing.

Although, if i screw up... there is some liability on my part being an independent contractor. I think that's maybe where I'm hesitating.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/7/10 5:37pm
Msg #335479

If you are not comfortable with doing it Marian, then go with your gut and turn it down

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/7/10 5:46pm
Msg #335481

Well, I'm going to do it....I've already committed to that. I think I'm just not going to notarize the signatures. The request for notarizing came after I'd already accepted. I don't see any reason preventing me from the notarizations ... I'm just not sure it's the right thing to do...kind of like how we're technically allowed to notarize for family members, but we usually avoid it just prevent any possibility of COI.

And of course, the SOS's office said, "Avoid all appearances of conflict of interest."

I think that's my answer.

As usual... I've pretty much answered my own question. But it's always nice to hear other viewpoints and I'm not opposed to changing my mind on this one.


Where's my Tylenol?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/7/10 5:48pm
Msg #335483

BTW -- I don't see any real reason why they need the signatures notarized anyway. Not in this case. I think they just asked me to do it as a bonus when they found out I was a Notary.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/7/10 10:16pm
Msg #335518

Ah. Makes it "leagaler" ;^) n/m

Reply by LoriM_CA on 5/14/10 9:32pm
Msg #336608

Marian, If the company you are asking about is TSR, I have worked for them now 4 different times. They are VERY nice people, pay at the end on the day and I love working for them whenever they come to our town. (usually every 6-8 weeks) Feel free to concact me personally or in private. I am happy to help. I'm in CA as well, and was a little leary the 1st time I signed for them but I am completely comfortable now.

Reply by KODI/CA on 5/7/10 5:48pm
Msg #335482

You state that you are acting as an independent contractor as a Notary Public or as their Agent. Financial responsibilities obviously could be different between both positions if you "screw up".

I would not take the risk to my reputation or financially. To me, it would not be worth it.

Just my 2 cents.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/7/10 5:55pm
Msg #335485

I'm being hired as an independent contractor -- using all of my own equipment. They are paying me a flat fee to organize this group of individuals/companies. When we sign their releases, etc., I will be acting as their agent and on behalf of the Company/sponsor (which happens to be a non-profit).

Reply by KODI/CA on 5/7/10 6:08pm
Msg #335487

You are being paid a flat fee to perform non-notary work using your own equipment, correct?


Being somewhat cautious I would still be wary of notarizing those documents because you created them on your own equipment and worked to obtain the signatures.

In a bank/title company operation usually, but not always, the individual notarizing the documents has not been involved in the creation of them.

JMO

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/7/10 6:30pm
Msg #335493

Well, I'm not actually preparing the paperwork. That's already done. I will, however, be printing them out, distributing them to the participants, collecting them after being filled out and doing a few other things for a checklist.

Essentially, it's a pre-event organizing meeting for a non-profit, where these people will be involved in an event in the future. I'm doing their orientation, handling the paperwork, taking their measurements, and a few other things.

They want me to do several of these orientations on the LA area for this event later in the year.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/7/10 6:32pm
Msg #335494

"taking their measurements"

I'm not going to go there! LOL

(pssst not a Chippendales event is it?)

Reply by jba/fl on 5/7/10 7:15pm
Msg #335502

S: like minds? LOL n/m

Reply by VioCa on 5/7/10 11:06pm
Msg #335521

I do not see anything wrong with Notarizing their signatures. After all when we notarize loan docs we print the docs, we hand deliver them to the borrowers, we identify the forms to the borrowers so we are kind of agents of the Title companies.
I would do it because there is no direct financial interest and nobody could hold me liable for anything unless I am not following the law for proper notarization.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/7/10 5:53pm
Msg #335484

Okay..a little late to the dance here...but question...

You're signing as agent/representative of the company...the other signers are signing what amounts to a contract between them and the company....your interests are with the company as their rep - how can you notarize the signatures of the other parties - you're not impartial any more...

Right? That's my question....right??..

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/7/10 5:59pm
Msg #335486

RIGHT!!! That's my view of it....

But when I read back in our handbook, it states that, "A notary public would not have a direct financial or beneficial interest in a transaction if a notary public is acting in the capacity of an agent, employee, insurer, attorney, escrow, or lender for a person having a direct financial or beneficial interest in the transaction."


If I were acting as an independent notary, it's black and white. No way.

But if I'm an agent of the company... it's somehow okay? That's that part that I don't get.

But banks have their employees notarize their contracts all the time. I'm not sure how this is any different. Remember, I wasn't hired as a notary... they just think it's a bonus that I'ma a notary.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/7/10 6:12pm
Msg #335488

I would ask if this job/function you have been hired to do can be done without a notary? That will be your key.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/7/10 6:24pm
Msg #335490

It can....

as I mentioned above, I was originally asked to this and no notarizations were ever mentioned.

The request to notarize came a week later when they found out that I'm a notary. Honestly, there's no need, that I see, for this to be notarized.... but then, that's not my call.

All the same... I'm going to tell them it could be seen as a conflict of interest for me to sign it AND notarize the person's signature, so to be safe... I won't do it.

I highly doubt that they will actually care. I think it was more of a, "It would be kind of neat if..." type of thing

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/7/10 6:41pm
Msg #335496

Re: It can....

Got you. I was thinking more on you adding "credibility" because of your status as a notary and them taking advantage (advertising) of that!

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/7/10 6:22pm
Msg #335489

Is your compensation for being their agent tied to the number of contracts that are signed?

If not - IOW, you're getting paid no matter what happens - I don't see how it could be a conflict of interest. However, I do agree with Sylvia - if it doesn't feel right in your gut, don''t do it..,

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/7/10 6:25pm
Msg #335491

Flat fee no matter what. n/m

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/8/10 12:34am
Msg #335529

Re: Flat fee no matter what.

If that's the case, I think you're OK - you clearly don't have a "beneficial interest" in the outcome, since you get paid the same no matter what happens.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/7/10 6:39pm
Msg #335495

When in doubt...

It doesn't sound like there is necessarily a conflict of interest but I understand why you are uncomfortable. I would not be comfortable either.

Personally, I wouldn't do it, but it is one of those things that is in the gray area.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/7/10 10:24pm
Msg #335519

Maybe not such a 'gray' area here, sounds like the Notarial

thing is an after-thought.

Sounds like a great job that helps out a good cause.

Marian's already resolved her 'conflict', while fulfilling her commitment.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/7/10 6:55pm
Msg #335500

Thanks ALL

I got a lot of good advice... here and via PM. I've sent my agreement to an attorney to advise me about the liability issues.

On the face of it -- there is no conflict and no reason *not* to do it.... but the situation itself may provide otherwise. Like I mentioned above, it's kind of like notarizing for family members (in a way) -- technically what I've been asked to do is fine, but there is some leeway with personal judgment.

Likely... I won't do it so so I can avoid any appearance of COI. But, we'll see.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/8/10 1:37pm
Msg #335562

Re: Thanks ALL

Marian, I completely agree with your summation in your second paragraph above. Keep in mind that there are attorneys and real estate agents who are also notaries, notarizing their own transactions. That issue has been discussed before, of course, but ultimately, you have to weigh what your gut is telling you about a perceived - if not an actual legal - COI, vs. how much money you would be leaving on the table by refusing and if, in the long run, if it might make a difference one way or the other. Every situation is different. Not knowing more about the details, it's very hard to judge.

You have good common sense and I'm sure you'll do whatever is the right thing for you.

Reply by loandocs on 5/8/10 9:42pm
Msg #335584

Caution is always the best way to handle situations. Based on your explanation of the situation, I would not recommend doing the notarizations.