Posted by ikando on 5/10/10 4:05pm
Msg #335727

Asked to produce journal page

I got a call from an attorney for the company who is foreclosing on a borrower for whom I was the signing agent last summer.

This borrower is claiming his documents were not notarized. Fortunately although Oklahoma does not require a journal, I keep one. The attorney has asked me to sign an affidavit and produce the page from the journal with the borrower's name.

My question: Should I charge a fee for my efforts to help with this situation? As I am also a virtual legal assistant, I have an hourly rate that I could charge, but because this is for work as a notary, I'm not sure how to handle it.

Suggestions are appreciated.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/10/10 4:30pm
Msg #335731

You should check your state's notary handbook. In ca we can only charge $0.30 for a copy requested by a member of the public. Now an attorney in a legal action? Hmmm Handbook is your best option. Sorry.

Reply by ikando on 5/10/10 4:35pm
Msg #335736

Thanks for the response, however Oklahoma has a non-handbook. Everything I know I've learned from scanning the statutes. Notaries aren't required to keep a journal at all, so nothing would address this situation.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/10/10 4:32pm
Msg #335733

Does your handbook cover this?

I know that in California, this topic is covered in our handbooks and provided for in state law. If somebody wants a copy o four journal, they have to submit the request in writing and provide specific details about the notarization (name of the parties, the type of document, and the month and year in which the document was notarized).

We can only charge them $0.30 a page.


I'm going to guess that since Oklahoma doesn't require journals, they probably don't address this. However, since you aren't required to keep a journal, then I'd probably wait until I were subpoenaed to to provide a copy.

Reply by desktopfull on 5/10/10 11:01pm
Msg #335787

I agree Marian. n/m

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/10/10 4:34pm
Msg #335735

https://www.sos.ok.gov/forms/notary/NotaryPublicGuide.pdf n/m

Reply by ikando on 5/10/10 4:36pm
Msg #335737

Re: https://www.sos.ok.gov/forms/notary/NotaryPublicGuide.pdf

Notarysigner, you see what I mean by a non-handbook.

Reply by ikando on 5/10/10 4:43pm
Msg #335738

Re: https://www.sos.ok.gov/forms/notary/NotaryPublicGuide.pdf

By the way, it was my work with a State Representative that caused the change in 2008 to add that to be a notary, a person should not have been convicted of a felony. I'm still working with him to try to tighten some other issues I feel are too lax.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/10/10 4:49pm
Msg #335741

Yeah... that's pretty sad...

I'm very sorry for you guys.

Reply by Julie/MI on 5/10/10 7:48pm
Msg #335769

Re: Yeah... that's pretty sad... Don't be sorry Marian

I feel sorry every time I see the CA notary handbook drama unfold.

I would be distraught if MI ever got a "handbook".

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/10/10 8:04pm
Msg #335771

Re: Yeah... that's pretty sad... Don't be sorry Marian

"I would be distraught if MI ever got a "handbook"

Well, there is the 4 page "Notaries Public Guide" LOL

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/11/10 5:28am
Msg #335791

Re: Don't be sorry Marian....Julie

"I would be distraught if MI ever got a "handbook". "

Technically, you do have one ... http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127-1638_8736---,00.html

All the topics on the face page of this MI SOS site are exactly what would be covered in a formal, bound, separate handbook, including this:

"Record Keeping

The Michigan Notary Public Act requires a notary to maintain all records of a notarial act for at least 5 years. A notary is also required to provide copies of those records upon the request of the Department of State. However, the law does not describe the type of record that must be kept or what must be included in a record.

A notary public is not required to keep a journal, but many notaries find journals to be an effective method for keeping records. If you keep a journal, it is recommended that you record the signer’s name, identification presented, date, type of document and other information you deem pertinent to the transaction."

There's also a pdf version of the MI Notary Public Act available there (2003 PA 238)...

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/10/10 4:47pm
Msg #335740

yes n/m

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/10/10 8:14pm
Msg #335774

Re: https://www.sos.ok.gov/forms/notary/NotaryPublicGuide.pdf

Wow... and I thought ours was lame. At least they kept it to 5 pages. Ours is 19 pages of total confusion...

Reply by MW/VA on 5/10/10 4:43pm
Msg #335739

Do you also have other records from the signing? The tc would never have accepted docs back that weren't notarized. I'm guessing the borrower is using one of those ploys that we've heard about--claiming the signing wasn't legit to get out of paying. I'd gather all the documentation you have.

Reply by ikando on 5/10/10 4:53pm
Msg #335742

I've long since destroyed any docs I had, but I know I was paid, so it must have gone through.

Yes, from what the attorney says, that's exactly what he's doing. My husband thinks I may have an issue from this, but I was simply witnessing his signature(s) and had nothing to do with the documents.

So, again I ask, what would be a fair charge for my time and efforts? Especially if I have to go to court to produce the actual journal.

Reply by MW/VA on 5/10/10 5:04pm
Msg #335745

The attorney is asking for an affidavit & the journal page. What fees would you have for providing that? You're not being accused of anything, just being asked to produce some evidence.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/10/10 5:06pm
Msg #335746

I sorry but that's a questions I personally couldn't answer because it's never happened to me. When I was in court for my case I was three 3 1/2 hours then there was the parking a two jobs I was called for but had to turn down. That one, you will have to figure out yourself.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 5/10/10 5:00pm
Msg #335743

Here in AZ, we can access recorded docs online for free. For example, I could get an unofficial copy of the DOT. Is that possible in OK? It may also be possible to get a copy of the fully executed docs through the lender or TC..

Reply by ikando on 5/10/10 5:03pm
Msg #335744

The system for the public to review land documents requires a fee to be paid. Anyway, I'm not the one who would be researching that. I was simply asked if I kept a journal and to sign an affidavit and produce the page showing the borrower came before me.

Any suggestions on what I should charge to produce this to the attorney who's trying to win her case?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/10/10 5:09pm
Msg #335748

Even if they get a copy of the signed notarized documents from the loan package, it is possible the signer is claiming that he/she wasn't the one who signed them and so the attorney wants to see proof from the notary that the signer is the one who appeared before her - so copy of the entry in journal showing what Id was given maybe???

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/10/10 5:08pm
Msg #335747

I wouldn't charge anything

This is an opportunity for you to prove what a diligent notary you are. This is the very reason notaries should keep journals! I wouldn't charge anything for this. I would very happily comply with the attorney's request so that this scam artist can be brought to justice for virtually committing perjury.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/10/10 5:10pm
Msg #335749

Now if you have to appear in court...

... that's a different story. In Florida we have "witness fees" and "expert witness fees" set by statute. In this case I would consider you an expert witness, but that would be something you should discuss with the attorney.

If your responsibility is limited to signing an affidavit and providing a copy of a journal entry, IMO this is one of your ex-officio responsibilities as a public officer and you should not charge anything.

Reply by ikando on 5/10/10 5:19pm
Msg #335750

Re: Now if you have to appear in court...

Thank you, Robert. I was leaning that way. I also wanted to impress this attorney because she works with several mortgage/lending companies. Perhaps I can get some other business by helping her out.

And thank you, all, for the additional input.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/10/10 6:59pm
Msg #335759

Interesting thought, Robert about "witness fees" but

I wonder if being a notary public witness in court isn't something that a notary should accept as part of the responsibility of being a notary...sort of a cost of doing business. There's the good and the bad. I can't think of a public official/commissioned official (whatever you want to call us) which would be any more likely to have to go to court than a notary.

A subpoena pretty much gets the notary into the seat. The notary would be an eye witness, a material witness...I don't see expert witness, though. (What is that I hear? Is that you logging into Lexis to search for a case?? If you find one, do let us know.)

Interesting to think on.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/10/10 7:27pm
Msg #335765

Re: Interesting thought, Robert about "witness fees" but

I agree Brenda...more likely testimony regarding notary work product...notary testifying about entries made by notary in their journal...no expert testimony there...just work product testimony.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/10/10 7:47pm
Msg #335768

Re: Interesting thought, Robert about "witness fees" but

I think the affidavit and copy of the log would be sufficient. A court appearance would probably not be necessary, and I agree that those should be provided at no charge (although I think the "ex officio" argument is a little over the top - my thinking is more along the lines of it not being a major effort to produce and it gets you some attaboy points with the attorney).

As far as a witness fee is concerned, I suppose that is something to be negotiated if and when the question comes up, but you're not gonna get a witness fee if you're subpoenaed (which is where the attaboy points could be helpful....).

But a notary as an expert witness? I agree with you here, Brenda. What would the notary be able to testify to in this case that would qualify him or her as an "expert"? That they are able to look at an ID and determine that this is the person standing in front of them? The counter guy at the local 7-11 does that all the time when kids try to buy beer...

The issue here is not whether the documents were notarized in accordance with state notary laws, but whether or not the signatures were ever actually notarized in the first place. The affidavit and a copy of the log are probably all that are needed to prove that point for the plaintiff. If an "expert witness" were required, it would more likely be a handwriting analyst than a notary...

Reply by Stamper_WI on 5/10/10 5:24pm
Msg #335751

It sounds like the borrower is referring to his copies of the documents not being signed. Weak defense but it could conceivably stall the foreclosure

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/10/10 5:30pm
Msg #335753

Just to keep the paper trail together and CYA

get the request in writing for documented records..and document document document every step taken with this - you may want to impress this attorney but you also need to CYA...

Reply by CopperheadVA on 5/10/10 5:36pm
Msg #335754

Re: Just to keep the paper trail together and CYA

As usual, Linda and I are on the same wavelength. This attorney merely called you - I would ask for a written request. Is he asking for just a copy of the journal entry? Is he asking for an affidavit from you? The written request should spell that out. The rest is up to you regarding what to charge...

Reply by Stamper_WI on 5/10/10 5:59pm
Msg #335755

Re: Just to keep the paper trail together and CYA

Seeing that the attorney who is asking is not the borrowers attorney and is asking for what amounts to confidential information on the borrower, I would ask for a subpeona. That is covered in our notary laws/ Either by Subpeona or by written permission of the signer.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/10/10 6:16pm
Msg #335756

Re: Just to keep the paper trail together and CYA

From what I read in this thread, OK doesn't address it as a journal's not required there....so simple written request may be sufficient and at least it's better than a verbal request that can be denied later.

If I were in OK I'd run it by the SOS...see what they say...

Reply by ikando on 5/10/10 7:21pm
Msg #335762

Re: Just to keep the paper trail together and CYA

Thanks, Linda. I hadn't considered it til now, but will call SOS tomorrow.

Reply by DogmongerCA on 5/11/10 9:10am
Msg #335809

Linda is on the right track

When dealing with attorneys especially, tread lightly. Seek guidance from your SOS, and at the very least, have the attorney make a specific written request, make sure your copy does not include the info of others. As far as a fee, the page should be provided for a minimal copy fee. As far as signing a affadavit, if you have to go to office, you should be compensated with a minimum fee plus mileage. As far as marketing to the attorney, if he or she wants you to sign a affadavit, they already have a notary most likely in the office. JMHO

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/10/10 8:11pm
Msg #335773

Re: Just to keep the paper trail together and CYA

"Seeing that the attorney who is asking is not the borrowers attorney and is asking for what amounts to confidential information on the borrower"

Why would this be confidential information? The lender presumably is in possession of documents that are signed and stamped by the notary and probably already has copies of the borrowers IDs, so they already have knowledge of everything that would be in that journal entry. The only thing the attorney wants is proof that the notary actually did what he or she said they did - something they are entitled to since the notary accepted a fee from their client to perform that work.

In states such as CA where there are specific rules about who can see journal entries and how that is accomplished, I could see your point. But in a state like OK where journals aren't even required, what purpose would it serve to resist such a request? There's no law to protect you, and at best you'd be looking at a subpoena and a possible contempt citation for refusing to comply.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/10/10 9:06pm
Msg #335781

Texas just produces the page once the $.50 is paid. LOL

I would ALWAYS hold out for the $.50, you know.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/10/10 6:48pm
Msg #335758

In Texas, the rules go this way: Entries in the notary's book are public information. A notary public shall, on payment of all fees, provide a certified copy of any record in the notary public's office to any person requesting the copy.

Yes, we get to charge a fee. $.50 per page.

Hardly worth it to charge.

From what I read in your posts, it sounds like you may benefit from doing a freebie.

Reply by Julie/MI on 5/10/10 7:42pm
Msg #335767

Handbook smandbook!!!!

Let the attorney get a copy of the recorded mortgage from the county That's record enough. Borrower's signature and your notary page.

Under the Freedom of Information Act (FIA) you should be paid the prevailing wage rate (make sure that the union rate) for your labor, time and materials in order to produce a copy of your notary journal.....i reckon about $399.

Cannot forget your "consulting" time spent on notary rotary to see what others in the field would charge.

So thankful I'm not a "handbook" state!!!!!!!!

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/10/10 9:23pm
Msg #335782

I think the issue is that

the signer is claiming that he never appeared before the notary to have his signature notarized as a way to "get out" of the mortgage. The attorney is requesting the journal entry as proof that the person did appear before the notary.

At least, that's how I interpreted it.

A copy of the mortgage wouldn't help with anything if the notary signed and sealed it when the signer wasn't in his presence.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/10/10 10:24pm
Msg #335785

Re: I think the issue is that

Robert
That is how I interpreted it too - but looking at the original post, the signer is saying that the borrower is saying "His" documents weren't notarized, so wondering if he is talking about his copies of the loan documents - which wouldn't be notarized anyway, only the originals.

Reply by jba/fl on 5/10/10 10:57pm
Msg #335786

No fee - this is the great opportunity to strut your stuff - you use a journal although not required, are available for all others who may need proof sometime in the future, etc, blah, blah, blah. Enclose a dozen or so business cards and any other printed materials about your services, thanking them for the opportunity to better serve their interests.

Dare to be....

Reply by Art_PA on 5/11/10 8:21am
Msg #335800

It is an excellent practice to keep a journal even if not required. You can prove what a person signed and when it was signed. Personally I do not view this as winning the "fee lottery", but as furnishing information requiring little effort, about 5 minutes.

Since your journal includes the names of other persons, and possibly the personal information used to identify them, I would copy the page redacting the names and other personal information relating to the other people on that page.

Is this worth $5.00? Remember that you are a Notary Public, serving the Public.