Posted by kathy/ca on 5/27/10 6:15pm
Msg #338637

E & O policy covers us for our notary certs but also as I

understand it, it also covers us for legal fees associated with doing our job as a notary. What I am wondering is if the legal fees that are covered could be unrelated to our notary certs and instead be for legal fees related to a suit as a NSA. Any thoughts or comments guys? Thx!

Reply by MW/VA on 5/27/10 6:29pm
Msg #338639

As I've always understood it, E&O insurance only covers us for unintentional errors that would end in a lawsuit, but does not cover us in our capacity as NSA's (error that might cause a loan not to fund, etc.) Many of us carry $100K because we understand how high legal costs can be.
I've heard about NSA E&O but chose to take a Business Liability Policy for $500K which would cover me for my NSA business.
It amazes me that XYZ, who sold the cert/bgc/$100K E&O insurance concept never bothered to let anyone know it wouldn't cover us as NSA's. It was through these boards that I got the correct info.

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/27/10 7:11pm
Msg #338646

There is always a lot of discussion about the need for

Business liability insurance for our work as a NSA, but if we do only "general" notary work, wouldnt just an E & O policy suffice?

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 5/27/10 7:24pm
Msg #338649

As has been said before...

No matter what, E&O only covers you for unintentional notarial error. Period.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/27/10 8:08pm
Msg #338658

Nope...

E&O is just that... it's a specific policy that covers Errors and Omissions. There are other aspects of gneral notary work, especially if you travel that requires insurance.

A good general business liability policy and an E&O policy will usually cover everything -- everything else deserves an umbrella policy.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/27/10 7:40pm
Msg #338650

I don't believe E&O covers NSA mistakes...

I think you need general liability insurance for that.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 5/27/10 9:54pm
Msg #338675

You Really Need to Re-Think Your Response Here, Robert. n/m

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/27/10 10:47pm
Msg #338682

And why is that? n/m

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 5/28/10 5:01am
Msg #338697

You're Inferring General Liability Insurance...

...is the same as E&O. It's not.

Reply by SReis on 5/27/10 8:07pm
Msg #338657

I can speak from experience....

& think you all may be mistaken re: it not covering you. Probably depends more on your policy & company.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/27/10 8:11pm
Msg #338660

My policy is only $1,000 LOL

But on my next renewal I plan to use RLI Insurance Co., it includes the bond, stamp, and $5,000 E&O for only $89.

Reply by MrEd_Ca on 5/27/10 8:23pm
Msg #338662

Re: I can speak from experience....

Can you enlighten us regarding the experience you speak of?

Reply by jba/fl on 5/27/10 9:14pm
Msg #338667

Re: I can speak from experience....

Past posting will show she is being sued and to the best of my knowledge it is on going, so no further comment(s) can/should be made. It is posted somewhere here though

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/27/10 8:49pm
Msg #338664

SREIS, how did your suit turn out and please inform us of

the outcome given you can speak from experience. I have been so curious. kathy/ca

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 5/27/10 9:51pm
Msg #338674

There are THREE Types of Insurance Policies...

...being discussed in this thread (four if you count an umbrella). One is the Notary E&O, next is the NSA E&O, & finally there's commercial general liability. Each one of these types of policies cover different exposures we have as signing agents. Notary E&O Insurance only covers for errors & omissions (not deliberate acts) committed while performing notarial acts only. No other signing agent error or omission is covered. NSA E&O is designed to step in & cover those acts not covered under the Notary E&O. This could be anywhere from filling out the RTC incorrectly to losing a package. A commercial general liability policy doesn't include ANY coverage for E&O. It's designed to provide protection from bodily injury or property damage a signing agent could incur in the course of their duties. If you knocked over a $10K vase while in someone's home, that would be covered. An umbrella policy will only extend the AMOUNT of coverage you have over & above your basic CGL coverage & has nothing to do with E&O. The umbrella normally starts out with basic limits of $1 million & goes up in $1 million increments.

As usual, this is not intended to be insurance advice. Please seek the counsel of an insurance producer in the state in which you reside for the definitive answer to your situation.

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/27/10 11:51pm
Msg #338688

My E & O policy says

by the insured by reason of any negligent act , error or omission committed or alleged to have been committed arising out of the performance of notarial service for others in the insured capacity as a duly commissioned and sworn Notary Public.

That sounds to me like under my current policy I am covered by any issue that could arise from my performance as a notary public, be it notarizing loan documents or any "general" notary work such as POA's, health directives etc.

I have always been a little stunned by reading posts that seem to infer we need so much insurance coverage and this has only been an issue the past 5-6 years.

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/28/10 12:13am
Msg #338690

Sorry, I lost some of the wording in the above post but,

My E & O policy says: "Claim for which is made against the insured by reason of any negligent act , error or omission committed or alleged to have been committed arising out of the performance of notarial service for others in the insured capacity as a duly commissioned and sworn Notary Public".

That sounds to me like under my current policy I am covered by any issue that could arise from my performance as a notary public, be it notarizing loan documents or any "general" notary work such as POA's, health directives etc.

I have always been a little stunned by reading posts that seem to infer we need so much insurance coverage and this has only been an issue the past 5-6 years.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/28/10 6:32am
Msg #338700

Re: Sorry, I lost some of the wording ...Kathy

"any negligent act , error or omission committed or alleged to have been committed arising out of the performance of notarial service"

Notarial service - not the signing of loan docs - two different functions - you don't notarize loan docs, you notarize signatures on loan docs..and your insurance will cover you for any errors made in THOSE notarial acts...but as has already been pointed out, your functions of a NSA are not covered (losing the package, incorrect or missing signatures, any action causing failure of the loan to fund, incorrectly completing the RTC)...

MHO

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/28/10 12:06pm
Msg #338770

Linda, okay so coverd by E & O in general notary work, not

NSA work, BUT should there be a law suit arise from a POA done by an elderly person contested by a child (for example), would we be covered in that suit, even though our notary cert was not in error?

I guess what I cant wrap my head around is all this talk about E & O coverage being limited to just what is within our notary block, hard for me to belive it is THAT limited!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/28/10 12:27pm
Msg #338778

I'll give it a shot but accept corrective advice

"should there be a law suit arise from a POA done by an elderly person contested by a child (for example), would we be covered in that suit, even though our notary cert was not in error? "

Not covered by E&O, especially if your notary cert is correct - In your example I believe your bond would come into play as that's for the public's protection against wrongdoing by the notary, and of course the wrongdoing would have to be proven and a finding made against you for the bond to cover you. Again, I THINK....and will appreciate any correction anyone can give if this is wrong.

If you want protection for your loan signing activities you need to look into either Signing Agent E&O insurance (specific to loan signing business) or professional liability insurance.

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/28/10 12:57pm
Msg #338788

How many of us have ever made an error on our notary cert,

I bet not many if any at all. Seems E & O insurance sure doesnt cover much. I have calls out to some insurance agents to price out business insurance. Thx for your input Linda!

Reply by SharonMN on 5/28/10 1:51pm
Msg #338815

Re: I'll give it a shot but accept corrective advice

"should there be a law suit arise from a POA done by an elderly person contested by a child (for example), would we be covered in that suit, even though our notary cert was not in error? "

Obviously depends on specifics of the policy, but if the child claims you failed in your notary duties, I think you'd be covered whether or not your certificate was correct. For example, if an imposter pretending to be the elderly person gave you a good fake ID that fooled you, you might get sued and you'd have to defend yourself and say you did everything right and had no reason to be suspicious. Or, the child could claim that you didn't notice their parent had diminished mental capacity (whether or not the parent actually did). Or, some crazy could claim, totally without merit, that your notarization failed to include a tri-color holographic seal that plays Stairway to Heaven when you hold it up to black light, resulting in loss of that important business deal they were working on with the Martians. You'd still have legal costs to defend that - remember, you don't have to be right to sue! In any case, your Notary E&O Insurance should pay for your legal defense as long as the claim was related to your duties as a notary. I think Notary E&O Insurance would not cover stuff related to travel and administrative duties, or acting in capacity beyond that of a notary, such as:
- Ran over signers' mailbox
- Forgot to put loan docs in Fed Ex box and left them in car while you were on vacation for two weeks
- Printed wrong version of docs
- Told borrower incorrect facts about the loan.

Your bond is different (and not required or available in all states) - so that in case of a claim, the public can get paid by the bond company, who then comes after you for repayment. The idea is that Mr. Public doesn't have to track you down and find you.

Where can one get "Signing Agent E&O"? I've never heard of that.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/28/10 2:15pm
Msg #338824

Re: I'll give it a shot but accept corrective advice

"Or, some crazy could claim, totally without merit, that your notarization failed to include a tri-color holographic seal that plays Stairway to Heaven when you hold it up to black light, resulting in loss of that important business deal they were working on with the Martians"

ROFL..too funny...love it!...

ASN offers NSA E&O - only in certain states though (unfortunately, Florida isn't one yet) ... written through Notary Public Underwriters, Inc. or CNA Surety....

Reply by jba/fl on 5/28/10 2:29pm
Msg #338832

I love that too! n/m

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/28/10 2:32pm
Msg #338834

Re: I'll give it a shot but accept corrective advice

The ASN doesn't offer the NSA E&O but will tell you where you can buy it.

"Where to buy Signing Agent E&O: It ASN’s policy to refer members to any notary bond/E&O agency with whom we have a working relationship through their sales of ASN memberships and products. Of those bond agencies, the only one that is also authorized to sell CNA Surety’s Signing Agent E&O insurance is Notary Public Underwriters, Inc.

(Please Note: ASN CANNOT sell this product—we do not sell any notary surety bonds or insurance products. Furthermore, we do NOT and CANNOT earn any income or commissions whatsoever from referring your business to a bond agency that can sell this product.)

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/28/10 6:38pm
Msg #338883

Sharon, you are correct from what I have learned today. I

have talked to 3 E & O insurance agents and all agree that the coverage of E & O insurance goes beyond making errors or ommissions on our notary certificate. They said anything that would create an issue or a law suit connected with our performance as a notary, be it the example I gave of the elderly person signing a POA or any other notarization that end up in a suit would be covered BUT that anything outside the scope of just acting as a notary (ie NSA) would not be covered. According to what I was told, even general liability would not cover a mistake made on loan docs. I was told the very same thing by all 3 agents in fact all 3 said to me they cant see any reason for a notary to need anything more than an E & O policy.

Reply by MelissaM_FL on 5/28/10 6:12am
Msg #338698

I think there is one more being discussed...

Robert has also referred to the insurance that is issued in Florida with/as part of our notary commission. That insurance is actually a bond of $7500, which is designed to perrrotect the public if a notary makes an error on their notarization. My understanding is that the $7500 bond amount is fixed and may not be increased.

I personally carry $100k in E&O (through Not Rot), along with the bond which the state requires. I am in the process of renewing my commission and I will continue to carry the $100k E&O because several of my customers require it.

Reply by kathy/ca on 5/28/10 10:28am
Msg #338755

I have a 15k bond too which is req'd in CA & I have always

thought that along with my 100l E & O insurance should be plenty of coverage as a notary/NSA but in reading this board, looks like some others dont agree. BUT, when I read my policy and it says I am covered for up to 100k against any "claim arising out of the performance of notarial service to others in the capacity of a duly commissioned and sworn Notary Public", I have to think I am covered beyond my notary cert. I wonder if this wording is the same as what is on other NP policies, I purchased mine here at NotRot.

Reply by Don Courtney on 5/28/10 2:21am
Msg #338693

The real value of e&o

$100K coverage is required to be on the approved lists
of many major title companies.

Fidelity. Chicago & Old Republic are my bread & butter...so you buy the insurance,
end of story.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/28/10 7:04am
Msg #338708

Re: The real value of e&o - Right, Don. Agree. n/m