Posted by Kauaigirl on 5/4/10 2:42am
Msg #334757

Help! What would you do?

Aloha! I received an email today from a local escrow company asking if I could perform a closing in my area (I'm on another island). She told me upfront that it is a Bank of America signing and the lender will only authorize a signing fee of $XXX.00. I emailed back that since my base fee is $xxx.00 I would be taking a $75.00 loss in doing the signing for that amount but I could lower my fee by $50.00 to accomodate.

Fellow Notaries and Signing Agents, please note that I am at a significant advantage here as there are only a couple of signing agents in my area and I am extremely busy. I don't want to appear greedy by any means but I believe I perform a service that is in demand and I have been performing closings/signings for several years now. I know my worth! There is no middle man to be paid. The transaction is handled directly with this particular escrow company.

What do you think? Honestly, I don't get a lot of business from this particular escrow company but I've always been able to accomodate when they need my services, often times at the last minute! I'm wondering if I am being to harsh by just wanting to say "No!" or "find someone else!" which would be almost impossible. I know this for a fact! I haven't emailed her back with my answer but I'm tempted to tell her that she should fly out here herself to close the loan, which would cost the borrower quite a lot if you factor in airfare, rental car, time...

Mahalo in advance for your opinions and advice!

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/4/10 3:24am
Msg #334760

You've answered your own question. Multi-Island signings

are an animal unto themselves. You know the ropes, you get the job done well, and, well, not to put too fine a point on it, are 'it.'

Stick to your guns, Kauai Girl. When they hire the Best, they get the Best. Lose one? Some loss -for them...

Not you, Kauai Girl. Besides, more likely than not? They'll be back, and, either "get" the fair price, or just accept because the alternative is too risky.

Plus, sticking to your bottom line is extremely satisfying - :^)

Reply by Lee/AR on 5/4/10 7:33am
Msg #334767

You and Susan said it. n/m

Reply by Grammyzoom on 5/4/10 7:56am
Msg #334768

Susan nailed it, stick to your guns!! n/m

Reply by A S Johnson on 5/4/10 9:58am
Msg #334776

I am in an area, 30 miles west of Ft Worth. I stick to my fees. BOA-CountryWides can be upwards of 200 pgs with 60 pgs of faxback and a lot of hand holding.
Their are many SAs in this general area, but close in Parker Co, we signing Agents know each other and talked about our fees and are in agreement not to leave $$$ on the table.
When one of us is called about an assignment and our fee is not accepted and we are told they need to get our fee approved, we call each other so we know what being offered and many times what $$$ we have asked.
I think in a restricted area like yours, a little freindly networking would help you a lot.
PLEASE do not start the "price fixing BS".
BOA is making $$$$$$$. Title/Escrow services get their full fees. Why are signing agents expected to eat cumbs?

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 5/4/10 10:16am
Msg #334780

Not the anti-trust police, and not going to turn you in BUT

what you have described may well be a violation of both Federal and
state anti- trust laws.
Not sure how high this would be on enforcement radar, but many of us
on NOTROT have received calls from FTC and Justice Department investigators,
inquiring as to practices and communications involving fees charged by NSA's and
XYZ fee standards.
Word to the wise.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/4/10 10:32am
Msg #334783

Re: Not the anti-trust police, and not going to turn you in BUT

But he is not "price fixing", there is a difference in calling other notaries and telling them what you have been offered and what you asked for, and price fixing, which IMHO would be suggesting they agree to ask for the same fee.

I could tell you I had seen a yacht (suitable for sailing to Fort Lauderdale LOL) and say it would be a good buy, but I wouldn't be telling you to buy it

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/4/10 10:46am
Msg #334785

But Sylvia? I believe that's exactly what's happening

even if it's not said outright..

"When one of us is called about an assignment and our fee is not accepted and we are told they need to get our fee approved, we call each other so we know what being offered and many times what $$$ we have asked."

Making no phone calls to others at all would be better than doing this - IMO they're saying "they're offering this, my fee was that and they didn't like it so stick with me"... the first person has set a fee which was not approved and now the phone calls saying where first person set the bar and getting other notaries to all agree not to accept the fee offered by the company.

That's the way I read it...may not be the case....and, of course, MHO

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/4/10 10:54am
Msg #334786

Re: But Sylvia? I believe that's exactly what's happening

I agree that it may be implied - and not making a phone call would be best.
But he isn't saying "stick with me on this", so I don't think he could be nabbed for price fixing.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 5/4/10 1:27pm
Msg #334812

I agree. We should advertise our prices like any other biz!

Just because you call another notary (some would call this networking and mention that you received a call from a company and what they offered, does not mean that you are involved in price fixing.

The airlines do it all the time. One of them will announce an increase in prices, then within a few days others follow with their own price increases. Why should we be subject to this supposed wall that will not allow us to openly advertise our prices when all other business are allowed to advertise theirs? If you have 10 SA in an are and 8 out of 10 see that their prices are 40% lower than everyone else, they can make the business decision to raise their own prices. They are allowed to raise prices aren't they? Why should our business be the only business in America that is not allowed to tell anyone what we charge?

Just because someone at some point in time was able to get gov't agencies to (possibly even illegal use of them) scare SAs by intimation and threats of charges (possible fake charges at that) should not mean that we should be forced to operate our business in secret so that these SS and TC companies can make all the profit they want. With the oil spill, you can be assured that gas prices will be going up. Why should we not be allowed to advertise our fuel surcharge like UPS and FedEx?

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/5/10 12:09am
Msg #334902

Five Stars, Moneyman. Doesn't price-fixing have to do

with say, gas station owners who all agree to keep a price high, even after the fluid price of Oil goes down, in order to make a bundle on the wider-than-legal margin of profit?

Not that I'm saying we should be fluid like oil prices, but as the cost of living raises, all small business, anyway, have to adjust up and still compete in some very saturated areas, as well as rural places. Each situation is different, plus, we have the "offers" that come in to consider and decide upon.

Tying the hands of we mobile Notaries with this, you hit the old nail, 'secret' pricing? We're not intentionally trying to screw anybody - we're trying to survive.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 5/6/10 12:57am
Msg #335075

Exactly. n/m

Reply by A S Johnson on 5/4/10 10:40am
Msg #334784

Re: Not the anti-trust police, and not going to turn you in BUT

Bob,
Thanks for the "word to th wise".
I can not think we are on any federal redar.
My example, I have a Mail Box Etc type independent shipping store, I intercepted a shipment of "cash of $9,900" which is not allowed without proper paper work by several federld laws.
Local Law enforcement was able to determine it was "drug" money but the Federal Att'y with IRS or DEA would not take the case as it was below their threshold of $10,000.
DO you really think we meet the threshold of any federal agency?
No one will help us collect from out of state companies who do not pay us. I'll take my chances.
Here is how to get in touch with me. I'm not hiding.
Sid Johnson
Weatherford Tx
817-613-7002

Reply by A S Johnson on 5/4/10 11:06am
Msg #334787

Re: Not the anti-trust police, and not going to turn you in BUT

Bob,
Not to beat a dead horse.
I just had a real estate agent in my shop to ship. I have to ask, how does the real estate industry get away with thier price fixing. In Texas the broker fee is 6% of which the agent gets 1/2.
I understand these are set by the Texas Real Estate Association which is a private trade group and has no legal/governmant connection.

Sid

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 5/4/10 1:43pm
Msg #334817

I understand these are set by the Texas Real Estate Associat

If your understanding is correct, then the TX RE Assn can get
into DEEP doo doo.
This practice has been illegal for many years.

Reply by dickb/wi on 5/4/10 2:22pm
Msg #334823

i can guarantee u that the texas re asscn does NOT set any .

commission rates......of all the re asscn's in the country the the el paso asscn [which is a subsidiary of the texas asscn] was the victim of a FTC investgation which resulted in several fines of over $10,000 each and prison sentences for several ]....discussing fees that u charge or commission's that u charge with any one else in the same business is considered by the FTC as price fixing period.......

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/4/10 2:15pm
Msg #334821

Let me beat the horse...I disagree, Sid.

I disagree that it is okay for you to discuss fees with your local competition.

In 2007 I, me, Brenda...whom you know...was contacted by the Dept. of Justice because they had complaints that notaries were doing just that. Someone (a signing service owner, I suspect, who shall remain nameless) had contacted them to complain about notaries in networks setting fees. Since I had nothing to hide, I spoke with them at great length and explained to the nice DOJ lady that for one thing, network members are not in competition with one another being located all over the state, and secondly, that we never, ever set a price schedule in the Texas network and I could swear to that under oath. Thirdly, I told her whenever I saw this on the board, I (and other notaries) quickly told the poster that it was illegal and punishable. And, that's what I am doing now.

Well...you might be wondering why I didn't immediately email all the members in the Texas network to tell them this. It was because I wanted the members, IF they got the call, to get give her the same information without a warning or prep ahead of time so that it would be totally what the network members knew to be true. If she asked you if I had told you about it you would be able to say no. The network had nothing to hide in this regard.

If it were me, I'd post a quick retraction and promise never to do it again in case Mr. Smarmy is reading. And, I would mean it. But that's just me. They aren't playing about this and as long as they get reports they have to follow up on it.

Mr. Smarm reported every state notary network (like ours) and gave them the names of the people who organized them. Several network organizers got calls. So, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Reply by SharonMN on 5/4/10 10:08am
Msg #334778

What is the confusion? You know your prices; they obviously aren't too high because other people are paying them often enough for you to be "extremely busy." It looks like you already answered her by quoting your normal fee and even went the extra mile by offering a $50 discount. Are you actually considering doing the signing at a loss? Why?

Reply by Kauaigirl on 5/4/10 12:23pm
Msg #334798

Aloha again! Thanks for your opinions and advice! I could have kicked myself after I sent the email agreeing to lower my fee by $50.00! What was I thinking??? After I slept on it, I realized that I perform and invaluable service and my fees are comparable to what is being charged on other islands for the same service. Yes, B of A is making money as well as the escrow/title companies! Why am I expected to roll over and let them take advantage of me by agreeing for them to pay me peanuts??? Grrrrr.... I have decided to let this one pass. Not worth my time and headache!

I am so grateful for your responses!

Mahalo!

Kauai Girl

Reply by Karen/OK on 5/4/10 10:10am
Msg #334779

Absolutely stick to your base fee! n/m

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 5/4/10 12:25pm
Msg #334799

You are correct. You offer are offering a true service and I agree with you, I see no need to offer discounts to a company that, as you said you, "don't get a lot of business from this particular escrow company." You sound like a person that knows that your time, knowledge and skills are a valuable commodities and you have set your prices accordingly. As you should.

If any company only wants to call you when they are low on options, they have no right to expect to be treated as if they are a loyal customer. We all have customers that we will work with for various reasons, but they are usually the ones that have shown loyalty to us as well. I have a few companies that I used to give me a lot of business in the past. Now that they have lowered the fees offered, and found others to accept it, they only call me for the last minute, late night, weekends or holiday closings. For them, I charge them my normal fee PLUS additional fees for the rush jobs, late night charge, weekend/holiday, etc and I will not give them a discount. They are not a regular customer and I am only receiving the call because they are low on options. That does not deserve any special treatment on my part.

For my loyal customers, I usually waive the additional fees to show my appreciation for their loyalty to me. It's a business relationship built upon mutual respect.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/4/10 2:10pm
Msg #334820

Not an NSA, but don't understand the whole fear of price fix

Doesn't EVERY profession set some sort of standard? That doesn't mean all attorneys get together and decide "We are going to rip off the public today, let's all agree to fix our retainer at $5,000". Each attorney is free to charge what they want but there is a general threshold that keeps attorney's from charging to low.

I don't understand it at all. Price fixing would be all NSAs getting together and refusing to accept less than a certain amount. All you are doing is setting a certain standard.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/4/10 2:22pm
Msg #334822

Let's just say it's no fun to get a call from the DOJ...

and they will call, because there are lurkers on this board who seek to destroy anything that they themselves cannot capitalize on. Since I was the instigator of most things network-y which did not help his SS biz, I think I made that lurker pretty darn ticked. He had to have lied to the DOJ in order to get them to call me, and they did. Nothing further happened from it, but it's p i t a.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/4/10 6:31pm
Msg #334863

Re: Not an NSA, but don't understand the whole fear of price fix

"Doesn't EVERY profession set some sort of standard? "

No. Once you start talking about setting "standard fees" - or even suggest what they might be, as the NNA found out - you're asking for trouble. Look at the legal profession - does the State Bar Association post a standard fee schedule? Every law firm and independent sets their own fees...

It's perfectly legal for you to see what your competitor charges and charge the same if you want - NotRot allows members to post their fees so that the customer knows what to expect, so it's possible to scope out your competition and adjust your fee accordingly. You get into a gray area if you sit down with that competitor over a cup of coffee and talk about what you should charge, because that can be seen as an attempt at price fixing. As Brenda has said from personal experience, the feds take this stuff very seriously.

"Price fixing would be all NSAs getting together and refusing to accept less than a certain amount. All you are doing is setting a certain standard. "

Think about what you wrote - isn't that the same thing? Setting a standard means saying you should not accept less than that standard.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/4/10 9:36pm
Msg #334890

Re: Not an NSA, but don't understand the whole fear of price fix

>>>As Brenda has said from personal experience, the feds take this stuff very seriously.<<<

IMO, the government should not be wasting its limited resources to investigate signing agents who may be attempting to "price fix". We are talking about $100 here, not $10,000.

When I set my wedding prices I did not consult with what other officiants charge. I charge what I think is a reasonable fee for my services rendered. Some NSAs happen to think that $50 is a reasonable charge, and they have a right to charge what they want. But, on the other hand, they might not realize that they could be charging more. I see both sides of the story.

But trying to encourage other NSAs to only accept $XXX fees IMO is *NOT* price fixing, and I would rather see the government prosecuting notaries for back-dating and committing other illegal acts, then wasting their time trying to put together a price fixing case over $100 price fix.