Posted by Robert/FL on 5/12/10 4:48pm
Msg #336105

Interesting conversation with an old notary today

Today I notarized the will of an older woman who had worker her whole life as a legal secretary and notary public. She was surprised when I pulled out a journal, and we got to talking about the notary laws of today versus the laws in effect when she was a notary (in Florida, we had about 2 pages of statutes in the early 80's, versus 20+ pages now).

Of course, back then, there being no education requirements at all, the only thing she knew how to do was sign her name and affix her seal. She was called into court once to explain why she notarized something without the signer being present. Her answer, "Well, my boss brought it into me and told me to notarize it. He's my boss, I couldn't just tell him 'no'".

It got me to thinking... when notaries were first appointed in the 19th century, surely those notaries knew how to administer oaths and take acknowledgments and never considered doing so without the signer being present. At what point did "notarization" become meaningless to the public? At what point did it go from a serious legal ceremony to an ex-officio signature guarantee? One thing I will say for the NSA profession is that it has made more notaries knowledgeable about their position. For example, this board is a great resource for notaries, and I think that many people on this board have learned a lot from reading the posts of other notaries on this board.

Of course, back in the 19th century there were no message boards either, but somehow the notaries back then knew how to do their job correctly. In between then and now something happened that turned the notary profession from a public office into a commodity. The question is... what happened?

Any comments?

Reply by BossLadyMD on 5/12/10 5:00pm
Msg #336108

'Old' notary....interesting term

Anyway, it sounds like a lot of what she did was use common sense coupled with the limited resources available to her. I disagree with your assertion that notarization has become meaningless. In fact, it has become just the opposite. With background checks, exams, bonds, and the like, being a notary is taken serious in my book and still a respected public office - at least in Maryland it is.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/12/10 5:10pm
Msg #336115

Maybe it is just Florida then...

with 440,000 notaries in our state, it is not taken too seriously. If someone doesn't like the way I notarize, they drive down to their local Amscot and the notaries there will sign off on anything you put in front of them.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/12/10 5:12pm
Msg #336116

Re: Maybe it is just Florida then...

Gee, you are so down on Florida notaries Robert.
There are many of us notaries in Florida who take our position seriously.

You really need to get rid of that chip you have on your shoulder.

Reply by SharonMN on 5/12/10 5:25pm
Msg #336118

Re: Maybe it is just Florida then...

No, Minnesota notaries are the same way. We don't have any education requirements, so most notaries just "have a stamp because their boss said to get one."

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 5/13/10 10:47am
Msg #336254

the chip is his age...he just doesn't get it yet.... n/m

Reply by desktopfull on 5/12/10 5:39pm
Msg #336120

Re: Maybe it is just Florida then...

"...they drive down to their local Amscot and the notaries there will sign off on anything you put in front of them."

Since I notarize signatures, as long as what they put in front of me and sign isn't one of the items listed on the "don't do list" for Florida notaries or full of blank lines I'll provide them with the acknowledgement or jurat that they request. You aren't responsible for what is in any document or paper that the person wants notarized.

Since there are approximately 18,537,969 people in Florida and is ranked 4th in the US, 440,000 notaries really isn't that overwhelming of a number. You've mentioned the number of Florida notaries negatively several times, why? What possible difference does it make to you how many people the governor approves to be a notary in this State? After all it is the Governor's decision isn't it?

Reply by Don Courtney on 5/13/10 12:23pm
Msg #336263

Re: Florida notary to population ratio

440,000 Florida Notaries from a population of 18 million is much higher than in California.

The most recent CA. Notary handbook states there are "over 225,000" Notaries in the state. The Census website shows a CA estimated population in 2009 of almost 37 million.

That is almost a 100% difference!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/12/10 6:46pm
Msg #336130

"but somehow the notaries back then knew how to do their job correctly. "

How do you know? I suspect it wasn't much different from today. Some do, some don't. Or it could be that many - if not most - notaries worked in attorney's offices and perhaps had some legal background. BTW, that's total conjecture on my part, with no more validity than your assertion.

Reply by MW/VA on 5/12/10 6:51pm
Msg #336131

Old or new (LOL) there are plenty of notaries out there that

sign & seal. Look at those #s and know it's am impossible task to track every notarization.
There are those of us who do take the profession seriously, and have to because of what's at stake. IMO it's better to get away from all the negatives & focus on doing the best job you can.
I've said this before, if the lo's, mortgage brokers, bankers, wall street, etc. are crooks, who has the time to be concerned with a lowly notary.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/12/10 7:12pm
Msg #336136

Re: Old or new (LOL) there are plenty of notaries out there that

Amen!

Reply by John/CT on 5/12/10 7:17pm
Msg #336137

Re: Notary practices

I have to agree with Robert ... at least in practice. I've seen too many cases where a bank employee will notarize a document without a personal appearance ... simply, I suppose, they believe this is just good customer service. And because Connecticut requires two signatures on a deed (including mortages), I am many times reminded by borrowers that, "The other notary didn't require a second witness the last time I refinanced." Plain and simple, fraud by that notary when they had their spouse sign off as the second witness after the fact.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 5/12/10 8:47pm
Msg #336146

Right on, John!

John means two WITNESS signatures on a Deed in CT. The Notary Public is allowed, but not required, to be one of the witnesses.

When I was dropping docs about two years ago, an alleged Notary Signing Agent brought in documents that he had just had signed by the borrower. He asked the employee at the storefront to sign as the second witness. I kept quiet. The employee signed as the second witness and the docs were sealed and sent. When I inquired (gently!), the employee said "Oh, he's a meatcutter over at [store name]." Nice. The Notary didn't even toss the clerk a couple of bucks for helping him commit fraud.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/12/10 9:37pm
Msg #336151

Re: Notary practices

John
I can agree that there are incompetent notaries out there - I have run into a couple myself in the last few months.
But, Robert is continually claiming that most notaries are incompetent (except him of course!), and it gets old after a while.
The majority of notaries I have encountered - and I can almost guarantee I have come across more notaries than he has - have been competent and professional. But, there is most always a bad apple in every barrel.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/12/10 9:50pm
Msg #336155

Re: Notary practices

Sylvia, people are posting on this board ALL THE TIME that borrowers make comments, "This is the first time a notary has ever administered an oath to me". You can tell me that this is just a coincidence. Most notaries do not administer oaths when required. Not just "most of the notaries Robert encounters", but most of the notaries PERIOD. I don't understand why you have to argue with me on this.

The members on this board are a very, very small group of notaries who do their job properly. Most notaries do not. That is not my claiming that all notaries but me are incompetent. Just because you claim to have "come across more notaries" than me, where have you met these notaries? Are they signing agents? I have never met a signing agent, but every notary I have encountered in banks and law firms have not done their job properly. Others on this board have similar experiences.

What is getting old is you fighting me tooth and nail over every single statement I make on this board.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/12/10 10:12pm
Msg #336159

Re: Notary practices

"people are posting on this board ALL THE TIME that borrowers make comments"

I wouldn't say members are posting ALL THE TIME (why you needed to "shout" that I have no idea, I can read and I am certainly not hard of hearing) that the borrower make those comments.

No, they are not all signing agents I have had notarial encounters with. Let's see you are barely out of your teens (not meant as derogatory!). I have many more years on me than you have, does it not seem plausible to you that I have come across more notaries than you?
I should be asking you where you are coming across all the notaries you claim to be coming across.
We probably all have had some experience with a notary not doing their job properly, but you seem to want to insist in your posts that most notaries don't do their jobs properly.

As for "fighting you tooth and nail" and arguing with you on the subject of most notaries not doing their jobs properly, I will continue to do so as long as you keep insisting that most notaries are incompetent.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/12/10 10:17pm
Msg #336162

Re: Notary practices

There are plenty of poorly trained or just plain incompetent notaries out there, but I think the point some of us were trying to make is that none of us has done a properly designed randomized survey, so there is no way that we can draw conclusions about "them" with any degree of accuracy. Everything else is just pure conjecture based on anecdotal info only - and pretty much meaningless.

Robert, you have made lots of good points on this board since you began posting here, but it seems that you have a tendency to state things as absolutes in very strong terms. That tends to make some of us feel that qualifiers are needed. You might try moderating your comments a little and see if that gets less of the negative responses that are bothering you. Just a suggestion...

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/12/10 10:22pm
Msg #336166

Re: Notary practices

"none of us has done a properly designed randomized survey, so there is no way that we can draw conclusions about "them" with any degree of accuracy"

Exactly Janet!!! Now if Robert had observed all 440,000 notaries in Florida and could state with absolute certainty that most of them were incompetent it would be fine. But I doubt he has observed even as much as a tenth of them.

Reply by MW/VA on 5/13/10 8:54am
Msg #336224

"Robert.....have a tendency to state things as absolutes

in very strong terms". I've suggested to him that he qualify his posts with "IMO" or better yet, "IMHO". I'm really tired of the arguments he's getting into because he won't accept other's opinions. This forum is for discussion--there is no dictatorship. If you want your opinions respected Robert, you will need to show some respect for other points of view. If you are in constant need of validation, IMO you should deal with that issue elsewhere.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/13/10 9:05am
Msg #336226

Re: "Robert.....have a tendency to state things as absolutes

"If you are in constant need of validation"

Think you hit the nail on the head Marilyn:)

Reply by Ernest__CT on 5/13/10 2:07pm
Msg #336342

Some people seem to over-Post ...

... in order to 1) Display their "knowledge" and thus validate (to themselves) their worth; B) Impress us (yeah. right.); iii) Rise in rankings because of their voluminous Posts.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/12/10 9:55pm
Msg #336156

agree with Sylvia ......

I probably don't have the experience most of you have but I can say in my short time as a notary I have only seen/noticed two notaries in need of retraining. Not so much from the standpoint they didn't know what they were doing ( if you know how to do it correctly why do it incorrectly is what I always say) but because they were actually changing the way it is suppose to be done because they didn't like it. I'm sure there are more but then again I don't make a habit of looking for peoples mistakes.

My mom always told me that when you point your finger at someone, three fingers are pointing back at you.

Reply by desktopfull on 5/12/10 10:16pm
Msg #336161

Re: Notary practices

"Robert is continually claiming that most notaries are incompetent (except him of course!), "

I believe in message #335314 Robert admitted that he didn't give an oath on jurats, he wrote: "I've only ever seen court clerks require a raised right hand for an oath. I have never done it because I would rather not get the strange looks or get laughed at."

I too am tired of Robert trashing Florida notaries, as he constantly reminds everyone on the board there are 440,000 and he generalizes the majority of them as incompetent and you have to wonder in his few years in the business community just how many he could have possibly met or associated with at all. And this coming from someone that breaches the confidentiality of documents received at the law firm he works for by posting parts from them on this forum and who is afraid to give an oath because he might get a strange look or laughed at.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/12/10 10:23pm
Msg #336167

Re: Notary practices

Desktop, you know you are twisting my words. I said I don't require a raised right hand; that doesn't mean that I don't administer the oath verbally as required by law (which I do), and I am not afraid to do so.

Secondly, I have not breached any confidentiality. I have never posted a client's name or the circumstances surrounding their individual case. I've only described situations where a notary acted improperly. Notarial acts are public acts. If I am not mentioning any names there has been no breach of confidentiality.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/12/10 10:32pm
Msg #336170

And your false accusations don't deserve any further

response from me, so I am done with this thread.

I stand by all posts made hereinabove.

Reply by desktopfull on 5/12/10 10:38pm
Msg #336174

Re: And your false accusations don't deserve any further

I haven't made any false accusations, you have posted info from your employers work product and in every law firm I've ever dealt with that is not allowed, period. You have stated that it is permitted by the firm you work for, I have no reason to disbelieve you. I'm glad I don't deal with that law firm though. Also, I didn't twist your words, I copied them verbatium from message #335314.

Reply by desktopfull on 5/12/10 10:34pm
Msg #336171

Re: Notary practices

Any law firm that I've done business with prohibits me from revealing one single word off a page of their work product. So, your saying that the firm you work for allows you to post their work product just as long as you don't reveal client name, that's fine, I hope I never use the firm you work for under those circumstances. BTW, I've dealt with at least 150 law firms, I used to serve their papers as a Civil Process Server in the 9th Circuit and 18th Circuit.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/13/10 9:04am
Msg #336225

Re: Notary practices

"I used to serve their papers as a Civil Process Server in the 9th Circuit and 18th Circuit."

I have worked with the 18th Circuit here in Brevard county many years ago:) (Not as a Process Server though), actually came across some of my business cards when cleaning out a closet the other week.