Posted by Robert/FL on 5/13/10 9:37am
Msg #336230

Keeping copy of notarized doc at client's request

I notarized a will yesterday, and the woman requested that I keep a copy of it myself. Where I work we obviously keep copies of all wills we draft - but they are conformed copies rather than photocopies of the original executed will. I said I would keep a conformed copy and I also gave her the original plus one conformed copy, but the question is - where do I keep it? Should I attach it in my journal or keep a separate file?

I've always thought the civil-law concept of "notarial wills" was neat - where the notary keeps the original will and issues certified copies when requested. Florida probate rules specifically address it, stating that a notary-authenticated will copy could be accepted as an original (this only applies to foreign notaries of course, not U.S. notaries).

Any suggestions?

Reply by jba/fl on 5/13/10 9:42am
Msg #336233

Does the firm have a safe deposit box? We used to keep ours at the bank, with listing of contents at the firm for a few of us to access upon demand. It needs to be in a secure, locked filing cabinet that is also fireproof. JMO

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/13/10 9:47am
Msg #336235

We have all the wills back to 1973 here in our office. Some files contain original wills (if the client requests that we keep the original) but most contain only conformed copies.

But in this case, this was not a will prepared by our office. I was only acting as notary, but was asked to keep a conformed copy, just like our office does. But since it was not a will prepared in our office, I should not put it with our other office wills; instead it should be kept in my posession as requested. The question is, where do I keep it? I have thought about attaching it to the back of my journal and writing a note that the client requested I keep it.

Reply by jba/fl on 5/13/10 10:33am
Msg #336248

Where did this person have this drawn up? That is who should be doing the safekeeping.

I was just looking at my will - in the upper right hand corner there is a stamp with the law firm's name and the location of the original. I have a copy, albeit, signed, but since there is designation stamp of where located, the original will have to be fetched from the firm's safe deposit box, or safe if they have made new safekeeping provisions in the interim.

I personally would want a record attached to my will, such as it is currently, directing all others to the original. This person should consider this approach as well. They should get a safe deposit box or let the law firm handle this.

I don't believe that this is something you should be doing. What if you change jobs? How will this persons heirs find you and the will? What personal method do you have to guarantee that it will not be destoyed, lost and/or damaged?

Reconsider this course of action Robert - this is more than you can or even should handle. Again, JMHO, after careful consideration of other comments prior to mine and my own experience. A quick phone call to the client to inform them that the State of Florida frowns upon this will not negate good will that you have engendered to date...after all, it is the State, not you, who is frowning.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/13/10 10:52am
Msg #336255

I am surprised Robert doesn't seek his employers advice on this matter, instead of asking here. He says he is a legal assistant (and in a "family law firm"), so his employers would be the best people to ask regarding this.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/13/10 9:48am
Msg #336237

Jules
Sounds like Robert is talking about keeping a copy personally!! I should think, working for attorneys, they should be the ones responsible for keeping a copy of someone's will.
Notaries are not supposed to be keeping copies of documents they have notarized (except, I believe, in Lousiana - and civil law notaries)

Reply by PAW on 5/13/10 9:46am
Msg #336234

You can't.

The Florida SOS and Governor's Notary section have explicitly stated, "Notaries are not authorized to keep copies of the documents they notarize." This is also stated in the Reference Manual.

Therefore, if the client wishes to have a copy kept for safe keeping, it should be a request made to the attorney of record, or the partners of your firm.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/13/10 9:48am
Msg #336236

Re: You can't.

They aren't authorized to keep copies of the document as notaries. But as a courtesy if a client requests that I keep a copy of a document there is no provision in the law saying that I can't. I think the handbook is saying that I can't insist on keeping copies. It doesn't say I can't keep a copy at client's request.

Reply by PAW on 5/13/10 9:52am
Msg #336238

Re: You can't.

Read it as you will. I personally take it at face value and do not keep ANY document I have notarized for someone else whether they ask me to or not. It is not in my purview. I do keep MY records, and having been a licensed broker, I still abide by the rules of safekeeping as outlined in the Privacy Act, Patriot's Act and the GLBA. That is, they are either destroyed (with a record of destruction) or kept under lock and key.

Reply by CaliNotary on 5/13/10 7:44pm
Msg #336421

You have got to be kidding

"I think the handbook is saying that I can't insist on keeping copies"

Where on earth would you get that interpretation? I just pulled up the FL notary manual and it CLEARLY states "Notaries are not authorized to keep copies of the documents they notarize".

Do you really not understand what "not authorized" means? It means

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/13/10 7:47pm
Msg #336425

Re: You have got to be kidding

Sometimes I think the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead:)

Reply by CaliNotary on 5/13/10 7:50pm
Msg #336430

That would explain the constant noise. n/m

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/13/10 7:54pm
Msg #336434

You got it Cali:) n/m

Reply by CaliNotary on 5/13/10 7:49pm
Msg #336428

Oops

"Not authorized" means "NOT ALLOWED". There is nothing vague or open to interpretation about it, so stop making up an interpretation that conveniently fits your desire to stick your nose where it doesn't belong.

And I find this especially amusing coming from you, since you're the one who is constantly on here harping on notary law, and now you're willing to completely disregard it just so you can feel more important. Because I sure as heck can't think of any other reason why you would want to keep a copy of somebody's will.

You need to learn your place. You're just a notary.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 5/13/10 10:13am
Msg #336243

and I thought I had to much coffee this morning...dude

you have been all of this board lately...slooooowwwww down Roberto!

Reply by John/CT on 5/13/10 10:14am
Msg #336244

I'm confused Robert. Your OP gave me the impression you were acting in your capacity as a notary by asking the question: "Should I attach it in my journal ...?" When Paul gave reasons why you can't, your reply to that now gives me the impression you were doing this as a personal accommodation for a client. If this is the case, why are you asking the question on a notary public forum, expecting a notary public response? Please excuse me if I got this all wrong. Did I?

Reply by CaliNotary on 5/13/10 7:55pm
Msg #336435

Not to mention, HE IS A FREAKING NOTARY

It's beyond laughable that he thinks that he can somehow get around that fact by saying that he's not keeping it in the capacity of a notary. That's like saying "I may be registered as a sex offender, but I'm not moving next door to this elementary school in the capacity of a sex offender, it's in the capacity of a private citizen, so I'm really not violating the sex offender laws that prohibit it.

Reply by MW/VA on 5/13/10 10:30am
Msg #336247

????? Why do you keep asking questions, answering them

yourself, and not accepting other input????? This is too wierd. I really think you ask "loaded questions" to provoke arguments. Try reading #4 of the Rules for posting on the forum.

Reply by jba/fl on 5/13/10 10:36am
Msg #336249

Re: ????? Why do you keep asking questions, answering them

Marilyn - I agree to a point. I think he is asking to provoke discussion so that he can clarify and solidify in his own mind, then apply succinctly. I think it is part of the learning curve that we witness here.

Again, JMO, and we all know everyone has one.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 5/13/10 10:43am
Msg #336251

jba/fl....too many big words..he might not understand....;) n/m

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/13/10 3:43pm
Msg #336373

Real mature, Cari. n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/13/10 11:19am
Msg #336257

I would call client and politely decline to be the

caretaker of her will. If she wants a copy kept somewhere for safe keeping, let her put it in her safety deposit box, or with the drafter of the will, or with a relative, or any place other than with you.

Attaching it to your journal seems ludicrous (sp?) to me - and as for a 'file', if you got hit by a truck tomorrow, God forbid, how in the world would anyone know that you have a copy of this doc? Who would think to notify the lady?

Robert, it belongs with her family, or her attorney, or in her personal safe, or anywhere but with the Notary who witnessed signatures.

I know it's hard to turn down requests from nice people, and I know you're a nice person too, but this seems just obvious - you shouldn't be involved in the caretaking of copies (conformed or otherwise) of docs you Notarize.

JMHO.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 5/13/10 12:22pm
Msg #336262

Don't keep a copy of the Will!

For all of the reasons stated here, for you to keep a copy of anyone's Will falls under the category of A Really Bad Idea.

Reply by SOCAL/CA on 5/13/10 12:25pm
Msg #336264

Your question was asked and answered by yourself and others.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 5/13/10 12:27pm
Msg #336265

Where to keep a copy of a Will

The Will should NEVER be kept in the testator's own safe deposit box! When the bank hears about the testator's death, the safe deposit box will be sealed. The Will will not be accessible until the bank knows for sure who has the right to open the safe deposit box. "Where", I hear you ask, "is the name of the person who has the right to open the safe deposit box?" It's in the Will, of course.

That's why the attorney's office keeps either the original or a copy in the office safe or in the office's safe deposit box.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/13/10 1:04pm
Msg #336290

I stand corrected, Ernest. Thank you. n/m

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/13/10 1:06pm
Msg #336293

Re: Where to keep a copy of a Will

There are some reasons to keep the original in a safe deposit box. The attorney in my office usually recommends to clients that the original be kept in the box and a copy be kept at the testator's home for them to refer to when needed. I believe in Florida there is some provision of law that allows someone with a copy of the will to enter the safe deposit box only to retrieve the original will for probate reasons. Otherwise, the person would need to petition the court for entry of an order allowing the box to be opened.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 5/13/10 1:09pm
Msg #336301

Re: Where to keep a copy of a Will

Always a good idea to have a second person authorized access to your SDB. Probably whoever you have designated as your Executor, presuming it's a family member or close friend.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 5/13/10 1:11pm
Msg #336302

Be careful of your state's law.

Some states seal the box whether there is a second person authorized or not.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/13/10 1:15pm
Msg #336306

Re: Where to keep a copy of a Will

Best thing is to make sure family members have copies of the will too. We always had a copy of our parents wills, and our kids have copies of ours - as well as one with the attorney.

Reply by PAW on 5/13/10 1:33pm
Msg #336323

Re: Where to keep a copy of a Will

The only time that the testor should keep a signed original is if there are more than one signed and sealed original. It is not unusual for estate planners and attorneys to make multiple "original" Wills. The law firms that I work with on a regular basis prepare, at a minimum, three fully executed copies. One for the testator, one for the executor/executrix and one for the attorney's safe.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/13/10 1:36pm
Msg #336326

I guess it varies by law firm then...

We would NEVER make more than one original executed will. Having more than one could pose a problem of logistics ... which one was executed last? If that one is destroyed by accident, and that will technically revoked the preceding duplicates, the decedent could be considered intestate.

It is our policy to not even make COPIES of a will with signatures. Only conformed copies are issued.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 5/13/10 1:37pm
Msg #336327

Yes, but ...

... a Connecticut attorney advised us (Sandi and me) that we should have only ONE signed and notarized original copy of our Wills. That original is in the attorney's safe deposit box, and we have COPIES in our freezer (the safest place in case of fire!) and at the executor's location.

Not arguing with anyone here, of course! Just telling you all what we were told....

Reply by rengel/CA on 5/13/10 2:02pm
Msg #336340

No, No on the Freezer idea

When my house caught fire 10 yrs ago, the company clearing the remains out of the house told us in no uncertain terms to NOT open the fridge or freezer, AND they banded the doors together in order to seal them shut.

When the power goes out, things start thawing out and the smell is horrendous. So, you might not be able to get to any papers, etc that are in the freezer.

Just my experience.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 5/13/10 2:19pm
Msg #336347

Umm, sorry. "Yes, yes" on the freezer idea.

We know, our children know, our executor knows, and our attorney knows that the original Wills are in double-bagged Zip-Lock bags in our freezer.

Yes, you are correct that in many cases the contents of the fridge and freezer will be disgusting if a fire has engulfed the house. When we die, individually or together, if we are killed in a house fire or otherwise, we want people to know where to find our Wills. As in MOST things, we followed out attorney's advice.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/13/10 2:25pm
Msg #336349

Re: Umm, sorry. "Yes, yes" on the freezer idea.

"many cases the contents of the fridge and freezer will be disgusting if a fire has engulfed the house."

And also after a hurricane - and I am speaking from experience of two hurricanes.

Reply by PAW on 5/13/10 1:55pm
Msg #336337

Re: Where to keep a copy of a Will - Correction

There are only two copies of the fully executed Will. One for the testator and one for the attorney's file. The testator also receives a conformed copy so they can provide the originally executed copy to the executor/excutrix.

Reply by MelissaM_FL on 5/13/10 6:44pm
Msg #336403

Re: Where to keep a copy of a Will

As a trained probate paralegal, we always advised our clients (when I did work for an attorney) to keep their wills in a fire proof safe at home and NEVER to keep them in a safe deposit box. The laws may have changed in the four years since I left his employ, but the problem was that the original will was required in order to get Letters of Administration issued to the Personal Representative...and the safe deposit box could not be opened until the Letters of Administration had been issued to the PR by the Probate Court.

Reply by BossLadyMD on 5/13/10 3:09pm
Msg #336360

Robert,you are not an attorney, this is none of your concern n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/13/10 3:14pm
Msg #336363

Emphatic NO...you are not authorized to keep those

copies....let the lady give it to her family member, her attorney, her trusted banker, but you stay out of it...

My emphatic humble opinion!!