Posted by Deanna Fleming on 5/25/10 1:27pm
Msg #338075
Question about a Notary done
A) If you do not have your notary book, you can not notarize, correct? You cannot stamp something, then have someone write all their info on a piece of paper and consider that a valid entry into your journal, correct?
B) If that was done, the separate, handwritten piece of paper, does that make the document invalid as far as being legal??
My boss is asking as far as a document, like a Trust that was notarized by someone else with a separate, handwritten, piece of paper but the entry was not recorded or signed in her journal. Now the gentleman is deceased and the Trust is being questioned!
THANK YOU!!!
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/25/10 1:38pm
Msg #338079
Where do I start???
A) Actually... you can. BUT, BUT BUT --- remember that state law says you must keep sequential journals. So, if you forget your journal you can start a new one --- but you can never go back to that old journal and start using it again. You'll have to close out that old journal.
Now, as for the pice of paper? Sure... you can do that, too... that piece of paper is your new journal. CA doesn't regulate what kind of format youuse for your journal, just that you keep one. So, if you keep it in individual sheets of paper? Great. Wise? No... professional? Not really.... but technically legal? Sure - just make sure that you record all of the required information and don't go back and use the old journal - ever, not under any circumstances.
In that case, I'd put the individual sheet in the old journal and close it out, then start a new journal.
B. If the journal entry is lost --- no matter the format, it doesn't have any impact on the validity of the document. HOWEVER, lack of a journal entry (IMO) could raise red flags in a court case for lack of evidence or fraud.
If the notary failed to record the notarization, she's in big trouble. If she "lost" her "journal" (even if it's one page) and failed to report it to the SOS, she's also in big trouble -- or potentially in big trouble if she's reported to the SOS.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/25/10 1:42pm
Msg #338083
Oh, and PS.....
"Question about a Notary done"
That's notarization, not Notary. A Notary is a person, not a verb - and therefore cannot be "done" per se.
A notarization is the act of a Notary.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 5/25/10 1:48pm
Msg #338089
Marian, I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure this "piece of paper" thing would fly in light of the fact that the availability of and use of a formal journal is customarily used. If it were 50 years ago and SOP was the use of a journal type book with blank pages to record notarial acts, then'd your point could be heavily argued. But today? Particularly if part of the trust documents involved a Quitclaim or Grant Deed - then a fingerprint is required and unless that "piece of paper" had an inked fingerprint on it, that Notary is is in trouble.
If the Notary had their seal with them for the ack or jurat, where was their journal? [Rhetorical] And, considering most ack and jurats or not CA SOS compliant, wondering were *those* specific certs compliant? [Rhetorical].
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/25/10 2:01pm
Msg #338096
Well, I do agree that it makes no sense that one would have her seal and not her journal. I mean... they're supposed to be locked up, presumably together, although that's not a requirement.
However, I can see it happening. I know that I *ONCE* made it to an appointment with a thumb printer, because I accidentally left it at my previous appointment. Actually, one of the kids managed to sneak it off the table when we weren't looking and when I packed up, I didn't notice it was missing. Fortunately, I noticed at the subsequent appointment, the borrower was a scrapbooker, had her supplies right by the table... and I we just used one of her stamp pads. Well, now, I carry two thumbprinters no matter what.
So, I can see that things happen.
I disagree about the "customary format of our journals, though. I've seen tons and tons of different kinds of journals. Many are like the NotRot/NNA hard bound ones. Other are spiral bound. I know of one guy who uses a moleskine notebooks and writes everything out by hand. There's nothing wrong with the way he does it. He still records all of the information he needs to.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 5/25/10 4:12pm
Msg #338150
<<<I disagree about the "customary format of our journals, though. I've seen tons and tons of different kinds of journals. >>>
Well, I meant customary in that they are designed for notaries, preprinted books, maybe not necessarily where there's lots of boxes to check off like the newer journals, but nonetheless specifically designed for recording notarial line entries.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/25/10 4:51pm
Msg #338171
That makes sense to me... and they are easier and more "official" looking so that's why most of us use them. I only say most because there are are some that just don't.
The guy that I mentioned who hand writes it all out in notebooks? He's been a notary for over 50 years and is about as old school as they get. But I tell ya... he knows his stuff.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 5/25/10 1:39pm
Msg #338081
<<<A) If you do not have your notary book, you can not notarize, correct? You cannot stamp something, then have someone write all their info on a piece of paper and consider that a valid entry into your journal, correct?>>>
That is correct.
<<<B) If that was done, the separate, handwritten piece of paper, does that make the document invalid as far as being legal??>>>
The notarial act is invalid as it was not complete. Recording info (name/address of signer, time, date, fee (even if no charge, a ZERO must be placed in the "fee" box), title of doc, type of notarial act, type of ID presented, ID serial number, etc) and having customer sign journal is part of the notarial ACT as CA Notaries are required to keep a sequential journal. Signing and stamping the notarial certificate is only part of the complete notarial ACT. This Notary violated the law and should be reported to the SOS.
<<<<My boss is asking as far as a document, like a Trust that was notarized by someone else with a separate, handwritten, piece of paper but the entry was not recorded or signed in her journal. Now the gentleman is deceased and the Trust is being questioned!
THANK YOU!!!>>>>
Somebody's (said Notary) gonna get it !!!!! Big time violation of notarial laws.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/25/10 1:50pm
Msg #338092
I actually disagree here with Lisa bit.
A is not correct. The law says we must maintain a journal, but does not dictate the format, only the information we keep. So, if I forget my journal... I *can* start a new one. In an emergency, a single journal entry on a sheet of paper would be fine and would serve as a single journal. From that point, I'd have to start another journal.
Of course, if I did that I'd keep COPIOUS notes about what happened, and I certainly wouldn't let that one sheet get lost. I would also photocopy the last page of my previous journal, and the first page of the following journal, and staple them together to show the sequence of acts.
Regard B -- a bad notarization doesn't mean the document itself isn't valid. That would be for a court to decide.
I do agree that if the notary failed to keep a record or lost the entry -- she's is BIG BIG trouble. Like, potentially felony and jail trouble.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/25/10 3:53pm
Msg #338144
Marian, I agree with what you are saying as to the letter of the law. In practical terms, though, my guess is that if the notary didn't have their journal with them at the time the documents in question were signed (and presumably stamped and "notarized"), then there's a good likelihood that they didn't follow the procedure you outlined and started a new journal after that.
Bottom line, (as Marian and Lisa well know) is that what is clearly not proper, is to insert a signed piece of paper (even with all the correct data) into an existing - and continuing - journal. As has been said, the key is that the proven sequence of that person's notarizations be maintained. Conducting a notarization this way, I believe, would be a very big red flag and highly suspect in this day and age, unless not only the process, but a very good reason for it, were very clearly documented. And I tend to doubt that would be the case.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/25/10 4:08pm
Msg #338148
Totally agreed. Doing this, or anything that deviated from your normal journaling habits, is pretty suspect... though I can imagine that it could happen. But dang... if it does, document the heck out of it!
I can't imagine a situation where I wouldn't have my seal and journal together. I'd probably postpone an appointment to either go get my journal if I forgot it, or I'd grab the spare blank one in my trunk and just start a whole new journal.
But that's me... I keep a small tub of stuff in my trunk of extra supplies, including a blank, new journal.
But... in some weird oddball emergency where I had no other options? I have no problem journaling the act on a sheet of paper. But I know darn well I'd end up adding 2-3 pages to it in notes detailing exactly what happened.
| Reply by Notarysigner on 5/25/10 4:20pm
Msg #338154
you are sooo efficient..
I keep Legal size and letter size paper in my car but nothing else. I have a blank journal but it is just sitting on the shelf waiting for my current one to fill up. Hmm
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/25/10 4:38pm
Msg #338162
Well.... I dunno about efficient...
I try, but I often fail miserably. I'm actually just a big believer in being prepared for emergencies, and sometimes I overdo it. But I'd rather be prepared with too much than be caught with not enough.
I'd probably be laughed at if I posted the entire list of items I keep in my car. Honestly...I think most of the time it just weighs it down and cuts in to my gas mileage a bit. But at least I'm prepared!
I have San Andreas to thank for that. 
| Reply by jba/fl on 5/25/10 10:24pm
Msg #338262
Sunds to me that you are ready
to run away from home on a moments notice....to see the world perhaps? 2nd honeymoon - etc.
I would love to compare lists of what is in the car and see how many like items there may be. LOL
| Reply by LKT/CA on 5/25/10 4:39pm
Msg #338163
Re: you are sooo efficient..
That reminds me....I started on my spare journal and need a new spare and extra thumbprinter.....thanks, James for the reminder.
| Reply by Notarysigner on 5/25/10 5:46pm
Msg #338191
Re: you are sooo efficient..
I got an extra thumb pad because I forgot mine one time and used a ink pad...it was a miss.
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