Posted by Shelly_FL on 5/12/10 10:00pm
Msg #336157

USPS form 1583 ...

Has anyone had a request for one of these?

I was suspicious the other day when I got an email from someone using only their first name and grammar that was not so great. He was "out of State" and needed to have his mail forwarded to him in the country that he was temporarily staying. He wanted to know if he was to send me a completed form by email, could I sign it for him (and I assume submit it to the USPS)?

After searching for and scanning over the Application for Delivery of Mail Through Agent, I found that "the applicant must execute this form in duplicate in the presence of the agent, his or her authorized employee, or a notary public." Besides the requirement for presence, the form also contains a signature block for the Notary Public, but no notarization is taking place. In Florida I can not sign this in the capacity of a notary, since I would not be performing an official notarial act.

Has anyone else come across this form? When I could not find it in a search here, I thought it might be helpful to others looking for the same info.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 5/12/10 10:12pm
Msg #336158

Don't do it. Period. n/m

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/12/10 10:14pm
Msg #336160

Agree with Ernest - don't do it! n/m

Reply by desktopfull on 5/12/10 10:18pm
Msg #336163

Ditto! n/m

Reply by Charles_Ca on 5/12/10 11:37pm
Msg #336197

I wouldn't do this particular request but...

USPS Domestic Mail Manual Sect 508 specifies in part...

Each CMRA must register with the Post Office responsible for delivery. Any
person who establishes, owns, or manages a CMRA must provide Form
1583-A to the postmaster (or designee) responsible for the delivery address.
The CMRA owner or manager must complete all entries and sign the Form
1583-A. The CMRA owner or manager must furnish two items of valid
identification; one item must contain a photograph of the CMRA owner or
manager. The identification presented must be current. It must contain sufficient
information to confirm that the applicant is who he or she claims to be and is
traceable to the bearer. The postmaster (or designee) may retain a photocopy of
the identification for verification purposes and must list and record sufficient
information to identify the two types of identification on Form 1583-A (block 10).
Furnishing false information on the application or refusing to give required
information is reason for denying the application. When any information required
on Form 1583-A changes, the CMRA owner or manager must file a revised
application (write “revised” on the form) with the postmaster. Social Security
cards, credit cards, and birth certificates are unacceptable as identification. The
following are acceptable identification:
1. Armed forces, government, university, or recognized corporate
identification card.
2. Passport, alien registration card, or certificate of naturalization.
3. Current lease, mortgage, or deed of trust.
4. Voter or vehicle registration card.
5. Home or vehicle insurance policy.
c. The postmaster (or designee) must verify the documentation to confirm that the
CMRA owner or manager resides at the permanent home address shown on
Form 1583-A; witness the signature of the CMRA owner or manager; and sign
Form 1583-A. The postmaster must provide the CMRA with a copy of the DMM
regulations relevant to the operation of a CMRA. The CMRA owner or manager
must sign the Form 1583-A acknowledging receipt of the regulations. The
postmaster must file the original of the completed Form 1583-A at the Post
Office and provide the CMRA with a duplicate copy.
d. A CMRA is authorized to accept the following accountable mail from their
customers for mailing at the Post Office: insured, COD, Express Mail, Certified
Mail, Delivery Confirmation, and Signature Confirmation mail. The sender
(CMRA customer) must present accountable mail items not listed to the Post
Office for mailing.

http://pe.usps.com/framepdf.asp?Dest=dmmtoc.pdf

I own mailboxes in my office as part of the business ser vices I offer. Form 1583 must be filled out ot rent a mailbox.

Reply by Shelly_FL on 5/13/10 6:50am
Msg #336210

Exactly what I was looking for...

Thanks Charles. This information goes far beyond what is on the form and will be a great resource for anyone in the future who is seeking to know more about it.

Reply by John/CT on 5/13/10 9:22am
Msg #336227

CMRA = Commercial Mail Receiving Agent n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/12/10 10:18pm
Msg #336164

Sounds like spam to get personal info to me.

Seems like some of them are getting a little more creative lately with trying to fool people into giving out personal data.

Reply by Lee/AR on 5/12/10 10:20pm
Msg #336165

Nothing good on TV so I checked it out....can't make heads or tails out of it. What's it for? Really? Just based on my own ignorance, I'd run away.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/12/10 10:31pm
Msg #336169

You would fill out that form if you wanted to use a Mail Forwarding Service.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/12/10 10:38pm
Msg #336175

I've seen this form before... but it was because I was renting a box from the UPS store for my business mail. This is a form used by pack and ship and private mail companies. It's a legitimate form authorize a private service to handle your mail.

If this person needs to rent a box or is using a mail forwarding service, they should have the form complete with the place where they are renting the box.

It's perfectly OK to notarize a signature of the applicant on the form... I just wouldn't actually fill out the parts that are meant for the agent. I imagine that would be the responsibility of the agent. I would ignore the field that said "signature of agent/notary" -- and would simply ONLY notarize the applican'ts signature and use a loose form.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/13/10 8:21am
Msg #336217

Hi Marian
The problem with this situation is that the person wants to send the completed form to the notary and have her "sign it". He is not going to be in the notary's presence.
Could be someone wanting to divert someone else's mail!

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/12/10 10:38pm
Msg #336176

NO notary should sign off on this

unless you are in one of the states like Maryland that allows simple witnessing of signatures by applying signature, seal and date.

The form is not really asking the notary to do anything other than witness the signature. Sure, I would sign it as a witness, with no seal or anything else. Just my signature.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/12/10 10:42pm
Msg #336179

I disagree....

Where's the harm in notarizing the signature of the applicant as usual and NOT filling out the "agent" fields?

The lack of a notarial certificate does not negate the request for a notarization if the person wants it. That why you ask them what they want.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/12/10 10:47pm
Msg #336181

Re: I disagree....

I agree, a loose certificate could be added if the person wants to acknowledge their signature.

Should have said, that the notary can not sign and stamp the form as printed. A proper certificate must be added unless you are in one of the states that allows certificate-less notarizations.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/12/10 10:51pm
Msg #336182

Re: I disagree....

Yeah... I think some are over thinking this one a bit. It *is* a legitimate USPS form, and like ALL federal forms, never have a notarial certificate. But, of someone wants their signature notarized... it doesn't matter what the document is (99% of the time).

As a notary, I would NOT act as the agent for this form UNLESS I was working for the company of course.... but I would gladly notarize the applicant's signature. No problem at all.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/12/10 10:55pm
Msg #336185

Re: I disagree....

I would actually like to see certificate-less notarization/"signature witnessing" authorized in Florida. Many notaries do this anyway - they are presented with a document with no pre-printed certificate, so the notary just signs, stamps and dates. Of course, this flies in the face of our laws, which require certificates with certain elements, but sometimes the document truly does not need an acknowledgment or a jurat - it only needs the signatory's identity to be verified and signature to be witnessed.

But, I'd also like our laws to allow us to affix the stamp in other dark-colored inks (besides black, as is currently required). Just me talking of course.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/12/10 11:08pm
Msg #336187

Re: I disagree....

Oooh, that's dangerous ground without some MAJOR revisions to the law. I'm not sure about FL, but in CA... something like that is just asking for increased liability issues on the part of the notary. The whole point of the notarial certificate is to clarify the reasons for the notary's seal. Without it, it's just a seal... so what does it mean? What took place? Public perception of the notarial seal is far different from reality. Having the certificate there (at least for CA) makes things very specific and limits our liability.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/12/10 11:10pm
Msg #336190

Re: I disagree....

Well, I would say that if the document doesn't have some type of "Signed in the presence of:" language, the notary should write "Signed in my presence this 12th day of May, 2010", etc. Maybe even include the type of ID produced.

In Florida, and in Calif. too, I believe, notaries are not authorized to simply "witness" signatures except incorrelation with another notarial act. Adding the witnessing of signatures to the list of authorized duties would be beneficial IMO.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/12/10 11:24pm
Msg #336194

Re: I disagree....

I suppose it's a state thing. In CA we really don't have "witness" type of deal with any formality. That's what the notarial acts are for.

Some documents that require witnesses do not always require a notarial seal. An Advanced Healthcare Directive is one of those. In CA, they can be signed by the person and two witness OR a notary acts in place of the two witnesses and just notarizes the signature. A notarization is not required all the time. Sometimes, witnesses are required over a notarization.

So the idea of using the seal as a witness is kind of a foreign concept... actually, it doesn't make a lot of sense. A witness and a notary are two entirely different things.... so why would a notary seal be required for a witness?

It's likely different in other states... and that's maybe why.

Here's an example doc from the CA state bar:

http://www.calbar.ca.gov/calbar/pdfs/publications/Will-Form.pdf

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/12/10 11:27pm
Msg #336196

Re: I disagree....

BTW.. I meant to add that many times a "witness" in CA is stating something that a Notary is not authorized to do -- such as capacity. For example, in the document link I gave above, the witnesses are stating a capacity of the individual signing. IN CA, a notary could never do that because state law prohibits us from certifying capacity of any kind.

Reply by Robert/FL on 5/12/10 11:14pm
Msg #336191

And I forgot to add

I agree, that under current law, the seal means nothing without a certificate. But, there could be provisions added to law to address that very issue, like they have in Maryland.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 5/12/10 11:10pm
Msg #336189

Re: NO notary should sign off on this

if you don't use your seal/stamp, then how would the USPS know that the person came before a notary public as stated therein??

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 5/12/10 11:08pm
Msg #336188

Per the form, "The applicant must execute this form in duplicate in the presence of the agent, his or her authorized employee, or a notary public..."

If the dude is 'out of state', how could you even possibly consider doing this? He needs to be present and accounted for, AND show you a few IDS (two).

If he did come before you, a notary public, and show you the proper ID's, then it is perfectly legal to notarize the document - if no space for your stamp, attach an acknowledgment as some have suggested here.

Sorry, but this is NOT that hard to figure out, or am I missing something here??

Reply by Shelly_FL on 5/13/10 6:57am
Msg #336211

No, you are right on

Who would say you're "out of State" if your living in another country, anyway? Mind you the fellow capitalized state. This was what cried out to me - phishing!

Now if he had said "across the pond", I would have understood that one

Reply by HARRY_PA on 5/13/10 7:32am
Msg #336214

Mail Receiving Agent

I am an agent to receive mail and rent mail boxes in my store. As mentioned above the agent has to apply and be accepted to receive mail for others. The form 1583 requires a personal appearance before the agent or to have it notarized. There is no notarial certificate or space on the form to place one, so a loose certificate is required. Over the years I have had long distance requests to rent a mail box and it most cases they proved to be attempts to commit fraud or at best somewhat fishy. I have made the decision, in most cases, to rent only to people who appear before me with two pieces of id acceptable to the postal service. It would be foolhardy or actionable for someone to attempt to act as a mail receiving agent without going through the proper channels.

Harry

Reply by A S Johnson on 5/13/10 9:42am
Msg #336232

I am a CMRA, Commercial Mail Recieving Agency.
I had "mail boxes" before the Post Office "wars" of the late '90s over "mail boxes/mail recieving units" and the new CMRA rules were put in place.
The 1583-A is the application for a business who wants to be a CMRA and must be approved before you can recieve mail as a business for "customers"
The 1583 is the application filled out by the person for the business to recieve their mail and filed with the Post Office that deliveries to your CRMA addres. A CRMA can only used "PMB or #" to indicate the mail recieving/"mail Box" unit.
Reports must be filed by the CRMA with your lacal Post Office each quarter -must be file on the 15th of the required month before that Post Office closes for the day and that day, the 15th, must be included in that report.
PS, the Post Office "wars" also established rules for business that "retailed for profit, at face value or gave away" U S Poatal stamps must get them from the Regional Post Offices Stamp Depot, the same place your Post Offices get their stamps. Understand this is almost unenforcable.
If you want to know the "rest of the story" go on line to usps.com and get the DMM, thier "bible", and OM "the way it is really done".

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 5/13/10 10:44am
Msg #336253

is/wa that a good business...renting mail boxes??? n/m

Reply by HARRY_PA on 5/13/10 11:04am
Msg #336256

Re: is/wa that a good business...renting mail boxes???

Mailbox rentals are just one component of my business, though not a very large one. People who receive mail sometimes need a document notarized make a copy, transfer a vehicle title, etc.

Harry

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 5/13/10 11:21am
Msg #336258

Harry PA please check your pm... n/m