Posted by mwm143 on 5/10/10 9:18am
Msg #335668

Which is the lesser of two evils?

1. Accepting assignments from those who agree to your fee and then they don't pay for 60-180+ days and only after numerous collection attempts, or

2. Accepting assignments from those who offer far less but do you pay you in 2 weeks.

These two topics are the hottest and have been for a long time.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/10/10 9:24am
Msg #335669

#1 because it should stop after the first incident,....#2 is the worst because it continues and belittles your self worth. IMO

Reply by LMS on 5/10/10 9:31am
Msg #335671

If EVERYONE stops taking substandard fees, those signing companies would have to charge their clients more or go out of business (which would be a hip hip hurray imo) and the problem would cease to exist. Also, what Notarysigner said!!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/10/10 3:41pm
Msg #335723

"If EVERYONE..."

That's just a pipe dream - even among the small percentage who read this forum. Never gonna happen.

Reply by LMS on 5/10/10 4:25pm
Msg #335729

JanetK.... I realize "EVERYONE" won't, the point was it wouldn't be a problem if everyone did, not that I have/had any illusion it was possible!!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/10/10 5:29pm
Msg #335752

Yes, we can dream, can't we! ;>) n/m

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 5/10/10 9:58am
Msg #335673

#1 - happens but does not happen often enough for me to begin cutting my fees. In 4+ years I have only had a few companies outright stiff me. (one is below in another post) That one is the first one in almost a year. The ones that I know from the start are going to pay Net 45 or Net 60 I simply charge more for my services and wait time. 60 day paying companies have to agree to my fees and agree to pay late charges if they do not pay on time. If they do not want to agree to my terms, I do not want to work for them as it probably means they are going to have trouble paying me in the first place.

#2 - James is absolutely correct 100%. When you start devaluing your work, time, and skills, you will start down a path that is too hard to climb out of. You will end up chasing your tail just to make ends met. Not to mention what it does to your self image.

One $150 loan verses 3 $50 loans is not even a contest for me. Less overhead (gas, wear on my car, time, material and liability) wins out every time. I offer a professional service and I expect a professional fee for that service.

I personally have found that the low ball companies are the ones that are the first to take longer to pay and at times harder to get answers out of when it comes to slow pay. I have my fees and sometimes these low ball companies will call and meet my fees, I will accept and as long as they have decent ratings in SC and on the boards. But they have to MEET my fees or I don't even bother talking to them.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/10/10 10:04am
Msg #335674

Well put,..I've given up the faith mode on SS and rely mostly on post in SC. If your "gut" feeling is to give them a chance, chances are you'll get a stomach ache!

Reply by jba/fl on 5/10/10 10:27am
Msg #335676

"If your "gut" feeling "

Feelings don't have any place in business. Logic and thinking do. Any if one reads bad reviews, consistently bad reviews on a particular company, why does one "feel" they will be treated any differently? Why not "think" it through.

"They always pay me" is another thing that really slays me too. Let's see: you are in the same state - they know you are in a much better position to take them to court and win and collect. OR you are in an area that you are the only one they can contact. Or you just don't read the signposts along the way showing the poor payments, extended times for payments - things that are not the "norm' for that particular company. (LFC, NREIS, etc.) Of course they pay you - they need you. But even so, the day will come (to my way of thinking) that you will not be paid as NNA is still churing them out and there are newbies who just don't know any better and just don't research the job and/or companies involved.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 5/10/10 10:21am
Msg #335675

Just curious as to what answer you expected to hear? n/m

Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 5/10/10 10:43am
Msg #335678

Re: Just curious as to what answer you expected to hear?

Shoshana, maybe he's justifing taking the smaller fee for expedient payment?

Reply by mwm143 on 5/10/10 10:51am
Msg #335681

Re: Just curious as to what answer you expected to hear?

Just curious really. It seems more and more people are working for $0.00 these days.

DISCLAIMER: I don't work for the NDs and MDAs of the notary world and am certainly not advocating for them. I was really referring to the lower paying companies....$75-$85 range.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/10/10 10:58am
Msg #335682

Re: Just curious as to what answer you expected to hear?

I personally would rather sit at home and work on my art then to take work for even that amount. Please may I ask, what is your answer to your question?

Reply by jba/fl on 5/10/10 11:09am
Msg #335683

Re: Just curious as to what answer you expected to hear?

"I personally would rather sit at home and work on my art then... "

I have relearned to cook from scratch including making my own bread, dusted off my sewing machine, gone on inexpensive outings and what I love most of all: assisted the good Lord in keeping my garden going they way I envision it to be. I work less (smarter) but enjoy all that is around me. I am so grateful for this slow time and that I am able to do so.

Pick and choose, pick and choose......not just a luxury.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/10/10 11:16am
Msg #335684

Re: Just curious as to what answer you expected to hear?

Ooh my.....getting my garden ready for planting myself,..after my daily art session. You are correct, slow periods don't necessarily mean "inactive" periods. Good for you Julie

Reply by mwm143 on 5/10/10 12:24pm
Msg #335695

Taking the risk

of getting paid is my answer. The obvious key is limiting you risk exposure. There are so many new companies that I've never heard of or done business with that just keep popping up. Then you have NREIS companies who have paid well for years and then suddenly owe folks thousands of dollars. People are on the fence whether to continue to take future assignments when they get a partial payment. I personally don't work for them so I can assume someone else in my area has built that relationship.

Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 5/10/10 10:47am
Msg #335680

It stands as with any other industry the more experienced people can demand more then the less experienced. Either the company wants a professional closing agent with years of experience or a witness closer, point and sign, they get what they pay for.

Reply by Grammyzoom on 5/10/10 11:45am
Msg #335687

Oh boy, my dandruff is UP!

I just read your post Ilene and understand exactly what you said, however, there are some people out there who are not very experienced but who are far ahead of the point and sign folks. Training is the key and I train my students to do it right so they deserve to charge the same fees as the best of us out there. I just got an email from a SS who told me to send them all the graduates I have because they love the work these people are turning out! Perhaps I should not post this but saying that only the experienced ones are entitled to standard fees is nonsense.

Reply by mwm143 on 5/10/10 12:16pm
Msg #335693

Re: Oh boy, my dandruff is UP!

I don't believe that you can train someone to handle each and every thing that could possibly come up at the closing table. Obviously someone can be trained to call a loan officer or title company (which is a good thing), however I would put my years of knowledge and experience up against a recent "graduate" any day of the week and I'm certain I will come out on top.

A hair stylist at Great Clips is trained and licensed but you won't find me there. Even if their cuts are $8.00. It ain't worth it.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 5/10/10 12:32pm
Msg #335697

Then, honestly, haven't you just answered your own question?

"I would put my years of knowledge and experience up against a recent "graduate" any day of the week and I'm certain I will come out on top."

"It ain't worth it. "

There is your answer. -- See my post below also

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 5/10/10 12:28pm
Msg #335696

Re: Oh boy, my dandruff is UP!

You are right. Training is a big key. Self confidence in one's own ability and business sense are also key. Unfortunately, too many people have the training, knowledge and skills, but lack the self confidence to realize that their time, knowledge, skills, and business sense are worth much more than the mere pittance these low ball companies are offering.

I'm with Carol, you do not have to be in this business years before you are actually ready to charge what you are worth. You just have to believe you are worth what you are charging and be able to back it up with professional service. Some people can be ready on the very first "official" signing, others a month or two worth of signings, and still others that have been in the business for years are still not ready. For the last group, it is really a matter of thinking and belief. They don't think they are worth it so after many years they still accept the low offers. Personally $125 is my minimum for a normal refi that is local (and I mean really, really local)

I can be at home perfecting my people watching skills from my front porch for some of the fees these low ball companies offer. I know I am worth more than they are offering and I will not put myself or my business on the sale rack just because they want me to. For what some of them offer, I get for general notary work.

If you don't like to people watch, then use the time you would be out on a $50-$85 job, for training and marketing yourself and your business. You have to be willing to say no and know that it is ok to turn down business in order to get paid what you are worth. You must also BELIEVE 100% that you are worth what you are asking. You can say the words all day long, but if you doubt it, the companies calling to hire you will hear it loud and clear and will be able to sell you on "helping them out this time" for change. Once you start that, you don't have much negotiating room since they can point to that time you accepted a signing for $65, now you are asking $125. Then you are in a position of having to justify your fees. And, again, if you don't believe it, you will never find the words to justify it. IMO

Reply by Grammyzoom on 5/10/10 1:17pm
Msg #335698

Re: Oh boy, my dandruff is UP!

I guess I got a little worked up there for a minute. I have read your comments and I do agree that in most cases experience trumps no experience. However, I also believe that confidence is everything and to make sure our students have that confidence, we continue to mentor them closely for 6 months after they register.

I would be really upset if I thought that any of our students were charging less than a standard fee for their work because they think they are not worth as much. What matters is a persons training and continued willingness to learn, their enthusiasm for the work they do, their concern that they do things right and if because they are human, if they do make a mistake, their willingness to admit the error and to fix it FAST!

Moneyman I read both of your posts and actually do agree with you on both counts. I just know what a lot of people are capable of without having to experience years of service.

I thank everyone for the feedback, have a good day, I have things to do and promise not to get my dandruff up the rest of the day.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 5/10/10 3:04pm
Msg #335719

Re: Oh boy, my dandruff is UP!

I agree with you and understand. I really think that some of the more experienced people are actually selling themselves short. And to be honest, the fact that we, as a group, do not advertise our fees also contributes to these low ball companies success. There is such a fear that most seem to be content to let everyone guess. Therefore, someone with years of experience does have a harder time asking for $200 or $250 for a loan that should be charging that for because someone newer may accept $95 (because they have been accepting $65 so far) and think it is a great fee for the work.

I think a lot of new people, or even seasoned ones, do not accept the lower than professional fees because they are wanting to undercut anyone. I think they do not know what the average fee should be and have no guideline for themselves to judge. And also they are not adding up all their overhead costs. If someone with 6 years experience is only receiving $70 calls, they can fall into the trap of thinking that is all that is out there. They might have the years of experience, they don't have the confidence and/or the knowledge that they are actually hurting themselves. Every other normal business knows what the other business that offer the same items or service is charging in there area, it's part of business. Why don't we? -- sorry, why are we told that we are not allowed to preform this basic standard business practice?

I have seen a Nordstrom store that is full of people and across the street so is the KMart store. It's all out there, but if you don't know it and you don't believe it, you could be a Nordstrom Manager working in the toy section of Kmart thinking that you have made it, because you have your "own" department now. With a salary difference of $30K or more.

The sad thing is that some NSA's are unloading the Nordstrom truck, then running it across the street to set up a garage sale for the same items being sold at full price in the store.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/10/10 1:34pm
Msg #335701

I believe, I believe! n/m

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 5/10/10 2:41pm
Msg #335714

U believe too much James -- not supposed to start @ $500 LOL n/m

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/10/10 2:53pm
Msg #335717

Re: U believe too much James -- not supposed to start @ $500 LOL

That is NOT unreasonable in certain parts of this city at certain times! mho

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 5/10/10 3:10pm
Msg #335721

U are right. I've made $500/hour in another business

I stand corrected, James.

I tried to make a funny and bit my own self in the butt. I was wrong.

Reply by Notarysigner on 5/10/10 3:45pm
Msg #335726

Re: U are business

It was funny,..now biting yourself adds to meaning to the turn "rubber necking" LOL

Reply by MW/VA on 5/10/10 1:41pm
Msg #335702

Neither. IMO both are equal as they both undermine this profession. Whether someone lowballs or plays games with paying, it is the same. All these companies can't get away with any of it unless we let them. The market is tough & we might have to make some adjustments to fees, but there's no point in staying in it if you can't make a profit & get paid as agreed.