Posted by jnew on 5/11/10 11:30am
Msg #335824
email dl security breach?
Documents printed. Requirement for copy of DL. Couldn't reach borrower before closing. Brought digital camera and used it for copies. Downloaded id to computer after closing. Printed id but because of security on dl was illegible. Emailed SS the id and asked them to forward to TC. SS calls and said that id was security breach. I have been downgraded by the SS and have not received any new orders. I have had packages emailed to me with all documents by same TC. SS says they don't need a reason to downgrade, it's their call. Needless to say after 50 closings with SS and absolutley no errors, I am shut out. I'm getting to think that notaries are treated by SS's as bottom of the barrel or dime a dozen. They have no concern for true quality, which is what I was giving them. Which brings up another point. The SS downloads from a secure website and then emails the documents to the notary. Who is actually violating security standards? Seems to me it's the SS.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/11/10 11:42am
Msg #335826
Personally... I would NEVER photograph anyone's ID -- ever, and I cringe every time I see people mention that they do it.
I do, however, have a mobile scanner that I use if (and only if) they don't have copies. It is scanned directly to my laptop in to an encrypted file program, where I later print it out. IN other words, nobody can get a copy of it. I then make sure it gets deleted once I'm done. But, I only do that when I have to... most of the time these days, people have the ability to copy or scan/print their IDs on their own in their homes.
Now, as for document security ---- yes, you're right. The concept of emailing documents is ridiculous. Unless you're using encrypted files or such.... and we all know that doesn't happen.
| Reply by jnew on 5/11/10 11:52am
Msg #335828
The only reason I did it was because a different SS on a different deal told me that I absolutely could not close without a copy of id. Called borrowers and they said they could not get one, so SS told me to use a digital camera. I assumed at the time this was a standard practice. I think I should have brought this up on Notary Rotary at the time, so I could see whether this was okay to do. I still think they treated me unfairly on this one.
| Reply by PAW on 5/11/10 11:54am
Msg #335830
If your instructions were to obtain a copy of the ID, then there should be no problem. However, if there were no such instructions, then you may have an issue to deal with.
| Reply by jnew on 5/11/10 12:00pm
Msg #335832
If your instructions were to obtain a copy of the ID, then there should be no problem. However, if there were no such instructions, then you may have an issue to deal with.
Yeah, that was the problem. The SS does not have that listed on their instructions. I find the requirement in the closing package as a TC requirement. If the SS would have told me when I got the order, I could have let the borrower know about it when I confirmed the closing with them. They say that I should have known not to email a driver license regardless. I looked back on all their requirements from this closing and past closings and never have seen the matter addressed.
| Reply by PAW on 5/11/10 12:18pm
Msg #335839
>>> The SS does not have that listed on their instructions. I find the requirement in the closing package as a TC requirement. <<<
The title company and/or lender may have gotten the copies from the borrowers previously, so no copy by you or the SS would have been necessary.
I do agree that emailing a copy of ID was not the best thing to do. I would have included the copy, as poor as it may be, with the returning docs and let the title company/lender resolve the issue. Another option is to inform the borrowers they need to FAX a copy of their ID to the title company. (Savvy folks make sure the fax is a true fax, i.e. machine to machine, not e-fax on either end.)
| Reply by jnew on 5/11/10 12:24pm
Msg #335843
The title company and/or lender may have gotten the copies from the borrowers previously, so no copy by you or the SS would have been necessary.
That is a very good point and I may have offered an extra unneeded "service" which apparantly has cost me. Thanks for all who responded on this. Needless to say, I am going to ask a few extra questions next time.
| Reply by PAW on 5/11/10 11:52am
Msg #335829
>>> It is scanned directly to my laptop in to an encrypted file program, where I later print it out. IN other words, nobody can get a copy of it. I then make sure it gets deleted once I'm done. <<<
Marian,
I'm sure you are aware that deleting a file really isn't deleting it at all. Even if it is encrypted, data encryption is sometimes easier to break than many people think. But, on the other hand, I do believe the data on your own computer is more secure than if the borrower went to Kinkos or any other commercial print or shipping place that offers document copying services. This has come more to light recently with all the reselling of commercial copiers. They do contain a hard drive and store the image of the document being scanned. The hard drive in those copiers usually are not wiped clean before it goes to the recycle center. (I think someone posted a link to a video about that, a short time ago.)
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/11/10 12:09pm
Msg #335835
Yes, I know that. And it freaks me out... I never use public copy machines anymore because of that.
My husband is computer genius, and he set up a system for me that is secure and meets (and beats) certain guidelines. I think it's imperative considering the amount of personal information people send me.
All the same, I'd never take a digital photograph of an ID. Is does seem to be common practice, but I know I wouldn't let anyone do that to my ID... so I wouldn't do it to anyone else's either.
| Reply by Robert/FL on 5/11/10 12:17pm
Msg #335838
In the copying industry's effort to make its copy machines digital, the security issue was not addressed. Seems like a good reason to keep those analog machines around. We have one in my office and our repair people are telling us that we are going to have to get a new machine because they no longer make the parts for older analog machines like ours. But in a law firm, we are constantly copying confidential documents, so security could be an issue with a digital machine.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/11/10 12:27pm
Msg #335846
Well, it's only a concern if you aren't aware of it or are too cheap to buy the encryption/wipe package from the manufacturer.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 5/11/10 12:51pm
Msg #335850
Call me old fashioned, but...
I bought a lightweight copier brand new for $40. I inform borrower during confirmation call that an ID copy is needed to return with the docs. I don't mention it on voicemail. Copier goes with me to signings (stays in the car until needed) in case the borrower doesn't have one or theirs is in storage. I also have an inverter in case I need to make copies from my vehicle. I wouldn't scan anyone's ID or take digital pictures of it, nor would I allow anyone to digitally scan my ID.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/11/10 1:05pm
Msg #335852
Re: Call me old fashioned, but...
They're the same thing, though... any new copier since about 2002ish is basically a digital scanner with a hard drive.
That said... I don't like scanning IDs, either... and only do it as a LAST resort, and I make sure the person can see what program I'm using, that it is encrypted and requires multiple passwords to access.
Of course, I don't like it when companies email their loan docs to me, either... because, and with only 1 exception, they are always insecure PDF files that I can easily copy or edit if I wanted to. That means hackers picking up the emails in transit could do the same thing.
I think that's the bigger security risk, honestly. All these companies emailing docs back and forth? That's just trouble waiting to happen.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/11/10 1:08pm
Msg #335853
Re: Call me old fashioned, but...
That said... that thing about the copiers only applies to DIGITAL copiers.
A lot of the small, personal ones are not digital. The Canon PC170 is one of those.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 5/11/10 1:18pm
Msg #335860
Re: Call me old fashioned, but...
<<<They're the same thing, though... any new copier since about 2002ish is basically a digital scanner with a hard drive.>>>
Not the kind where you life the cover, put something face down on its glass, close the cover and hit "start". It just spits out the copy of the thing you put face down on the glass. Maybe the kind of copier where you feed stuff into it may save info to a hard drive.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 5/11/10 1:23pm
Msg #335866
Never mind....
Got updated on the ways of copiers/scanners from my son.....Marian and Glenn are correct.
| Reply by jnew on 5/11/10 1:13pm
Msg #335856
Re: Call me old fashioned, but...
I don't know what the degrees of difference are when you hand over your license to someone to copy.
Borrowers probably make a copy on their own printer/copier (scan-print or digital copy) or a commercial copy center. Do they leave a digital footprint by doing this? Granted on their own equipment in the first case.
(do we have a moral duty to tell borrower not to do this? Especially in the second case?)
Lender collects paper copy with closing package. I think it is highly likely that the entire loan file gets scanned including the id. And as previously stated, the security is in their office until such time they trade in their equipment for new or their lease expires with the old machine and they lease newer equipment.
ID gets scanned and image resides on digital equipment until it is deleted. Probelm with Emailing the image has been addressed. But if a copy is made and sent with the package, does it present any further problem than those of the first two examples. I don't see it.
I guess if you make sure that you are not leaving behind a digital footprint on any of the steps you have taken, it shoud not make a significant difference.
| Reply by Glenn Strickler on 5/11/10 1:16pm
Msg #335859
Re: Call me old fashioned, but...
When the security issues came to light on copiers, I did a little research and even the cheap copiers have a certain amount of flash memory, typically 500mb or more to store image on before it's printed. They also work digitally, so in function, there is no difference between scanning the id and printing it or taking a picture of it with a digital camera and printing it on your computer. In fact, you can use one of many wiping programs to completely delete the data from your camera, something that is difficult at best with the lightweight copiers. I also would never, never, never use a cell phone camera to take the picture. At that point in time, you lose total control over the image. Just be aware that data is stored even on the low end copiers.
That being said, I also went the lightweight cheap copier route as the resulting copy is much quicker and cleaner than the camera / computer route. Plus I always have control over that image, and should the copier ever break, I will take care of the memory before I discard it. Even with only 500mb of flash memory, many images can be stored.
But the bottom line here is that a copy was transmitted over email on the internet when it wasn't requested by the signing service. Unless it's requested in my instructions, I don't get copies of the id and if I do, it gets sent with the paperwork via ground, never transmitted electronically.
| Reply by C. Wayne Moore on 5/11/10 4:27pm
Msg #335903
Carry a little PC 160 copier with me to every signing!
Cost me $50.00 on E-Bay. Make copies if necessary and send back with package.
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/11/10 7:21pm
Msg #335947
Re: Call me old fashioned, but...
"When the security issues came to light on copiers, I did a little research and even the cheap copiers have a certain amount of flash memory, typically 500mb or more to store image on before it's printed. They also work digitally, so in function, there is no difference between scanning the id and printing it or taking a picture of it with a digital camera and printing it on your computer."
My Canon PC-170 is analog - there is no flash memory. Not sure where you got the impression that even the cheap ones are digital, but that's not a true statement in this case.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/12/10 4:49pm
Msg #336106
This is one of the reasons that I have avoided getting in the middle of the ID copy issue. Most of the people I see do have copy capability in their homes, but I prefer to have them take the responsibility. I don't routinely ask for an ID copy unless instructed to do so. I've seen too many lenders (Chase comes to mind for one), where we have been instructed to NOT make a copy, but to instead fill out the Patriot Act ID forms certifying that we have viewed their info.
I realize that there are risks with all approaches, but when we go beyond what is requested, we are potentially creating additional liability for ourselves and possibly for someone else. The ideas and attitudes about this issue are all over the ballpark, so I think it is best to try to follow the letter of the request. And if I ask a borrower to produce copies of their IDs and they don't do it, I'll put them in contact with their LO to get it taken care of. Fortunately, it doesn't happen very often and I've never heard of it being a problem.
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