Posted by Buc on 11/21/10 3:41pm
Msg #362276

Aborting a signing

Has anyone aborted a signing because they felt the signer did not understand fully what they were signing?
If so, what was the reaction from your hiring company and from the signer?

Reply by SueW/Tn on 11/21/10 3:55pm
Msg #362278

Yes I have aborted two signings

Both were with elderly folks who's children had this terrific idea that they should refi a paid off home (not to be confused with an RM). Neither BO understood what we were doing and I "aborted the mission". The reaction from the hiring company? It's not important to me because I have to follow the notary laws of my state. Tell Pat it's my opinion that either of you could have aborted the signing and gone back at a later time. It's always easier to see day light the day after.

Reply by Yowheelz on 11/21/10 4:18pm
Msg #362279

I walked out on one

Borrower and girlfriend got into a big argument. Girlfriend wanted money to buy a new car, borrower wasn't sure he wanted to refinance. Bo was deffinitely under duress. Girlfriend screaming and crying. I told them that under the circumstances I could not notarize the documents. Left and called title with explanation and they agreed.

Reply by James Dawson on 11/21/10 4:41pm
Msg #362282

Yes, Once! This is one I have mentioned sometime ago where the borrower asked me for my ID then called the police department and asked them if they knew who I was.

I appeared to me that the refi was the wife's idea because he obviously was going 50/51. His name was the only one on the Deed. I carry a copy of my commission, bond, E & O and showed him but he would have none of that. I excused myself ( I told them I had to make a phone call) and called the hiring party and explained the situation. They ( hiring party ) called the borrowers on their land line while I was there and told them they were going to re-schedule the signing. I don't know if they ever signed but I did receive a cancellation fee.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/21/10 5:03pm
Msg #362283

Yes ...

It was a Reverse Mtg, and when I pulled up to the house I could see it was desperately needed, house looked like it would fall over if I sneezed on the porch.

VERY intricately orchestrated presentation to me inside - borrower was wheelchair-bound, elderly (of course). Relatives doing the talking 'for' her. It became quite clear in no time, she was far from the same reality we were living in.

Gets even worse. Grand-daughter lives there, house is about to fold to tax liens and water damage. When I confronted G/daughter about Grandma's obvious lack of lucidity - she burst into tears. "Please, you have to help us, we'll lose the house!" With a little game of 20 questions, I discovered - Grandma was actually under Guardianship. I mean, not like it would've mattered, but this put it WAY out of range of possibility.

I was SO ANGRY at the L.O. for putting us ALL in this position!! How dare they! How DARE they play with the hearts of people - including ME! When I left, I cried. I carried it around a long, long time. Did they lose the house? Did Grandma have to be sent to some facility that would take her on Medicare? Did the G/daughter end up homeless? Did the house literally collapse? Did she have other family and where were they? WHO was the Guardian?

I didn't catch an ounce of heat from the client - the fact that she was in Guardianship would pretty much stop a freight train in its tracks. But what it did to me and to those poor souls is just unforgivable.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/21/10 8:45pm
Msg #362303

Oh, oh oh oh. Renee, what a travesty. How dare they,

those greedy slimeballs.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/21/10 9:16pm
Msg #362308

Yes, twice in one week

<<But what it did to me and to those poor souls is just unforgivable.>>

You hit the nail on the head, ReneeK - I had a signing where they had brought Mrs. Borrower from the nursing home to the signing site, wheeled her up to the table and put a bib on her because she was drooling so much. She was completely uncommunicative and could barely hold her head up (they said she had just been given her meds!). I asked her to sign my journal, they put the pen in her hand and she began - only the pen was retracted, so she signed her entire name (took forever) but with no ink on the page - and she never even noticed. I just sat there watching her, stunned. WHY do family members put their loved ones through this? (Because they believe that underneath that nonfunctioning exterior, the person is still at the top of their game?) It was so sad, and I was so uncomforable, having to say in the nicest way possible that I can't sign this person. The one earlier in the week was easy, when the husband acknowledged my concerns about his wife's behavior by whispering: "Alzheimer's." That was a slam dunk adjournment.

I know that most people have no idea what a notary does - especially when it comes to our authenticating knowledge and willingness - but, really, let's say their insurance agent was coming to their house to get them to sign some papers. Do you think they'd put them through this???

Interestingly, the husband obtained a POA from the wife in just a few days, so, evidently, some notary had no problem notarizing her signature, which she could barely write when I was there - not to mention the thumbprinting, which she absolutely could not do. She was completely baffled. The husband had to press her thumb on the ink pad and then on my journal. Then, he said to her: "Remember what we practiced all week?" Yikes!

As far as Pat's drinking signers - that's a hard call. Some people can pack away the highballs, get all rowdy and still know exactly what's going on. Others (like me) are completely zonked after half a glass of wine ... but without many tell-tale signs...

P.S. And looking back on my notary career, there are many signings I did that I wished I hadn't. Now I'll refuse at the first sign of trouble .... shaky ID, noncommunicative borrower, language issues, anything. And the more intimidating, aggressive, rude or whatever the signer/LO/Realtor/spouse becomes, the more stubborn I get, and I could give a hoot what the receiving agency says - though I have never had any flak from any of them. Probably because they just send another notary - because I can honestly say that in all the instances where I said no, another notary said yes..

Reply by jba/fl on 11/21/10 11:43pm
Msg #362322

Re: Yes ...

This is almost identical to the one I spoke of below where the LO tried to ram it down my throat about me not doing my job. As far as I was concerned, the LO was the one in question.

When I spoke to my BO asking if she knew what she was doing, she replied yes but then looked at me with a really sweet, conspiratorial smile and stated: "But I really don't." She was trying to please the devastated family.

I agree Renee, the LO was a pig to do this to everyone involved. This was once one of the most beautiful, unique houses I've seen literally waiting for that sneeze after hurricane damage. I still ache for these folks.

Reply by MelissaM_FL on 11/21/10 6:38pm
Msg #362293

Yep.

Was on the phone with title trying to find out if the lender would accept credible witnesses for the severely handicapped husband whose driver's license had expired a year prior. Meanwhile, the wife (who was Haitian) was threatening and screaming at me that she would "curse" me if I didn't use his expired identification. The guy at Title could hear what she was screaming, then he suddenly said "Where did she go? It got quiet." I looked around, but she was nowhere to be found. The Title guy told me to get out of there, fast!

I scooped up my stuff and ran to my car. This woman actually followed me out and beat on the hood of my car as I was backing out of the driveway.

They actually got a notary from another town to come to my home and pick up the docs. That notary signed the loan using the expired Id!!!

I reported it, but don't know if anything came of the whole deal. I didn't leave because of bad ID, but because I was afraid that the woman was coming back with a weapon.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 11/21/10 6:43pm
Msg #362294

A pit bull and a winter jacket that did not make it.

Owner had locked away Fido in a bedroom, but forgot to tell the 6 year old not to open the door. Seems Fido loved the family, but not strangers and before Mr. Borrower could corral him he had my Columbia jacket sleeve half way down his throat,sans my arm thankfully. While Mr B was putting Cujo back in the bedroom, I was splitting out the back door making a beeline for my car throwing gravel like the Dukes of Hazard.

Next day, the TC called and said that Mr. B still wanted to sign and pay for my jacket as well. This time we met at the Starbucks.

Reply by Mary Ellen Elmore on 11/21/10 8:38pm
Msg #362298

I have aborted several.

One the lady did not even know her own name it seemed. She had ID with an alias not her real name, check stubs with alias, BC with birth name. Asked if she had legally changed her name. She said yes. I asked for the court papers. She said she never went to court that her employer, 20+ years ago told her he would change her name for her and started writing her paychecks in that name. She also stated she did not want to Re-Fi--her son was threatening her to do it. Hiring party was okay with it.

Another the gentleman was elderly and he kept telling me, 'Since I have 3 days to decide, then come back in 3 days and I'll tell you if I want to sign." This would happen even after the LO explained the 3 day RTC and his younger girlfriend. He wanted to read each and every word of every doc--not a real problem except that after 1.5 hours he had only read 35 pages and his GF told me he had just had a stroke that affected his thinking. Hiring party was upset with me--oh well.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/21/10 9:27pm
Msg #362310

"'Since I have 3 days to decide, then come back in 3 days and I'll tell you if I want to sign.""

I remember this one!! If you didn't post it someone had an identical experience!!...LOL

Reply by Mary Ellen Elmore on 11/21/10 9:32pm
Msg #362312

I posted it here.

They are the company that refuses to let you contact BO before going out. They have not called me since.

Reply by jba/fl on 11/21/10 11:35pm
Msg #362319

Just recently - No valid ID for Mr. - expired 2 years ago. Passport expired 4 years ago. Then Mrs. brightly said he doesn't drive anymore because he has dementia. Sorry - no can do.

Mrs. & son: Can we get another notary? We know lots.

So of course, being 9am and all other parties in CA only 6am, no one to talk to (even though I was promised! hahaha) so I had to say bye bye.

About 1 hr. later SS called, saying I should have asked for ID when confirming, why didn't I get credible witness and so on? She was acting like this was my first time out. Had to ask if she understood the word "dementia" - what was I to do - have witness see what? say what? because by then I was royally PO'ed with SS. She was to call me back, didn't so sent full bill. Now I don't want to shred docs, so am thinking that I will send to her on her label because I just get the feeling that I'm not even going to get a trip fee/print fee due to some comments here.

I have had others because of same problem and the SS's/TC's were terrific about the whole thing, although I remember one LO trying to ram it down my throat that I was not doing my job properly while the TC was applauding my decision.

Ultimately, it is my decision, so I really do not care about what is said to me about it.

Reply by Les_CO on 11/22/10 9:50am
Msg #362342

Yes…four Two almost identical… person did not like their bank, started reading the note, and started to cross out, and write in changes. I said sorry but you can’t do that, Title and your lender will not accept ANY changes to these documents. Borrower said: “Don’t tell me what I can change and what I can’t, this is not what I agreed to and the bankers are a bunch of crooks.” I let her finish, changing the note, and said okay we’re done, I’ll send this in to Title tomorrow and you’ll hear from them soon as to your changes. The second one was with a completely psychotic lady. Luckily we met in a Starbucks, she too hated her bank, and immediately asked to see the DOT first, and started to read, and line through and write in changes to the DOT. I said, “If you do this, it will not be acceptable to the lender, let’s start again with a clean copy.” Nope She was going to make changes, I said okay go ahead, you just sit here and do that, and excuse me I have to go to the washroom, and left. Both cases I called and let Title know. Neither loan ever closed. One case where an older gentleman, did not want the loan, had no idea of what it was about, something his grandson not present had arranged, and the grandson was coming soon, I left before he got there. One where husband and wife getting divorce. Husband wanted cash out to leave town, wife wanted cash out and the house. BIG argument, I said when you guys get this settled give me, a call and I’ll come back.
Just part of the job.

Reply by Jessica Ward on 11/22/10 10:40am
Msg #362352

This one reminds me of one I had. The borrower opened right up to the note, said no way, he won't sign with Wells Fargo because their employees aren't union. (Are any bank tellers union? I don't even know). I said OK, call your LO or Broker, and work things out with a bank you like and we'll meet again. Have a great day!

Reply by Jessica Ward on 11/22/10 9:59am
Msg #362346

For a multitude of reasons
... borrower appears intoxicated ("Oh, I just took some pills for my back" is not an acceptable justification IMHO).

... borrowers fight... once in a house with guns all over the place!

... borrower has insufficient English to make clear to me that they know what they are signing.

... lack of lucidity.

... Noticing an inconsistency between docs and ID, or expired IDs.

I have very seldom ever needed to abort a signing, but I consider my job to always look for a reason to abort. That's a notary's job, right? If there is any doubt, the closing should not be completed.